Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Very very interesitng article in today's New York Times Sunday magazine about infants and fetus' pain. The article discusses fetal pain - almost certainly by 20 weeks of gestation, but also the fact that 20 years ago Drs did not believe newborns felt pain and so did complex invasive surgeries - including heart surgery - on newborns without any anesthia for pain, only medication that - basically - paralyzed the infant during long, complex surgical procedures (unbelievable to me!)...however, with research the Drs have discovered what any parent could have told them YES BABIES FEEL PAIN, what the hell???????? Gee, guess what? Newborn babies that are anesthetized during these surgeries have a higher survival rate than those who do not - even with the dangers and deaths of these infants from the anesthesia itself. Now it is standard procedure and not using anestheia on newborns is considered malpractice. Now they are researching fetal pain as related to in inter-unterine surgeries on fetuses - some Drs are starting to give fetal pain killers during those surgeries as well as there is much scientific evidence that they do feel pain. They also, obviously, discuss the question of how much pain fetus feel while being aborted - There are bills in Congress now that would require Drs to tell women requesting abortions that their fetus' feel pain and to offer administration of anesthesia 'directly to the pain capable unborn child' before an abortion. However, Elizabeth Nash, a public policy assoiciate at the Guttmacher Instituute, a reproductive - rights group stated "By PERSONIFING (caps are mine) the fetus, they're trying to steer the woman's decision away from abortion" (???!!!???) I just think that 200 years from now people will look back upon this period of time, with abortions as a legal option, about like we think of slavery...what in the name of God were people thinking, allowing that to go on? And, hey Lizzie, it isn't a BAD thing to "to steer the woman's decision away from abortion" you hateful creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Give it up. A majority of Americans want to retain the right to choose. I'd be interested in seeing the numbers of Catholics who have abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 i'll bet there are a bunch of the holier than thous that have abortions each and every year. afterall, they are not allowed by their priest to use birth control, at the same timew their priests are fooling around with little boys. sick DELETED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 None of which has a darn thing to do with the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 None of which has a darn thing to do with the post. It has everything to do with the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Very very interesitng article in today's New York Times Sunday magazine about infants and fetus' pain. The article discusses fetal pain - almost certainly by 20 weeks of gestation, but also the fact that 20 years ago Drs did not believe newborns felt pain and so did complex invasive surgeries - including heart surgery - on newborns without any anesthia for pain, only medication that - basically - paralyzed the infant during long, complex surgical procedures (unbelievable to me!)...however, with research the Drs have discovered what any parent could have told them YES BABIES FEEL PAIN, what the hell???????? Gee, guess what? Newborn babies that are anesthetized during these surgeries have a higher survival rate than those who do not - even with the dangers and deaths of these infants from the anesthesia itself. Now it is standard procedure and not using anestheia on newborns is considered malpractice. Now they are researching fetal pain as related to in inter-unterine surgeries on fetuses - some Drs are starting to give fetal pain killers during those surgeries as well as there is much scientific evidence that they do feel pain. They also, obviously, discuss the question of how much pain fetus feel while being aborted - There are bills in Congress now that would require Drs to tell women requesting abortions that their fetus' feel pain and to offer administration of anesthesia 'directly to the pain capable unborn child' before an abortion. However, Elizabeth Nash, a public policy assoiciate at the Guttmacher Instituute, a reproductive - rights group stated "By PERSONIFING (caps are mine) the fetus, they're trying to steer the woman's decision away from abortion" (???!!!???) I just think that 200 years from now people will look back upon this period of time, with abortions as a legal option, about like we think of slavery...what in the name of God were people thinking, allowing that to go on? And, hey Lizzie, it isn't a BAD thing to "to steer the woman's decision away from abortion" you hateful creature. how about when it is a two cell zygote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 None of which has a darn thing to do with the post. it has everything to do with the post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Give it up. A majority of Americans want to retain the right to choose. I'd be interested in seeing the numbers of Catholics who have abortions. HA HA HA very funny. They will never admit it, nor should they have to, so you'll never get your statistics. You'll get just as many honest responses to this query as you would to "who cheats on their income taxes?" lol (or how many catholics cheat on their spouses?) Not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 HA HA HA very funny. They will never admit it, nor should they have to, so you'll never get your statistics. You'll get just as many honest responses to this query as you would to "who cheats on their income taxes?" lol (or how many catholics cheat on their spouses?) Not gonna happen. Well Mexico is 90% Catholic.. "There are an estimated 200,000 illegal abortions in Mexico each year. Of women who opt for illegal procedures, at least 1,500 women die during botched operations performed in unhygienic backstreet clinics." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6586959.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Impossible? Being Catholic doesn't just prevent abortions? I thought it did.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 The days when it is anybody else's business is rapidly closing...people will do what they want with their own bodies.... The French abortion pill RU-486, on the market since 2000, has become an increasingly common alternative, making abortion less clinical and more private. At a time when the overall number of abortions has been steadily declining, RU-486-induced abortions have been rising by 22 percent a year and now account for 14 percent of the total -- and more than one in five early abortions performed by the ninth week of pregnancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 The days when it is anybody else's business is rapidly closing...people will do what they want with their own bodies.... The French abortion pill RU-486, on the market since 2000, has become an increasingly common alternative, making abortion less clinical and more private. At a time when the overall number of abortions has been steadily declining, RU-486-induced abortions have been rising by 22 percent a year and now account for 14 percent of the total -- and more than one in five early abortions performed by the ninth week of pregnancy Who's having abortions (religion)? Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical". Who's having abortions (income)? Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Can someone explain to me why this has turned into a debate on who is having abortions? What is the point..other than to try to run down religion. Go start another post if that is what you want. This is a thread on fetal pain, and I guess, the question of the morality of abortion....but not a crab fest about Catholics having them, Evangelicals having them etc etc. how about when it is a two cell zygote? I am glad you asked that..for me, I can't see a cut off...where and how do you decide when a fetus is and when a fetus is not human...some people like to say it is a human when the baby is viable outside the mother....but that keeps changing, doesn't it? So, a baby born 20 years ago at 30 weeks was not human, but a baby born at 30 weeks last year IS? So, throw that one out the window. So, when is it and when isn't it human...sorry, but for me, absolutely, it is human when it is a zygote...yes, at the moment of conception it is a human..not a potential human, a full human being with a soul (gasp, she DARED to mention something religous, must be some kind of a freak), and ALL THE RIGHTS of any other human being. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Can someone explain to me why this has turned into a debate on who is having abortions? What is the point..other than to try to run down religion. Go start another post if that is what you want. This is a thread on fetal pain, and I guess, the question of the morality of abortion....but not a crab fest about Catholics having them, Evangelicals having them etc etc. I am glad you asked that..for me, I can't see a cut off...where and how do you decide when a fetus is and when a fetus is not human...some people like to say it is a human when the baby is viable outside the mother....but that keeps changing, doesn't it? So, a baby born 20 years ago at 30 weeks was not human, but a baby born at 30 weeks last year IS? So, throw that one out the window. So, when is it and when isn't it human...sorry, but for me, absolutely, it is human when it is a zygote...yes, at the moment of conception it is a human..not a potential human, a full human being with a soul (gasp, she DARED to mention something religous, must be some kind of a freak), and ALL THE RIGHTS of any other human being. Period. All the rights of any other human being? Like to vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 All the rights of any other human being? Like to vote? The right to protest? Seems like these are rights given to citizens, you know, people that were BORN into a country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I'd be interested in seeing the numbers of Catholics who have abortions. They have excommunicated themselves from the Church, by their own actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 HA HA HA very funny. They will never admit it, nor should they have to, so you'll never get your statistics. You'll get just as many honest responses to this query as you would to "who cheats on their income taxes?" lol (or how many catholics cheat on their spouses?) Not gonna happen. People commit sins? I never heard of such a thing. :rolleyes: There is such a thing as a BAD CATHOLIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aphoristically Moderate Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Somebody will tell me this has nothing to do with all this but I can't help but remember a post I made a couple of months ago relating to this. I went something like: Imagine you are having a late term abortion. Imagine your "doctor" helps you expel a fetal mass that coincidentally looks like a newborn baby, albeit a little premature. Suddenly the little thing starts to move and cry a little. What do you do now? This isn't a hypothetical situation. This actually happened at least one hospital in Illinois: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18647 In another article that I can't find right now, nurses were encouraged to wrap the baby in a blanket and leave it in a closet and retrieve it after it had died. Some nurses stayed with the babies until they died. Whatever your opinions on abortion are, this HAS to seem like a grizzly situation. Despite all the efforts to kill a baby during an abortion, IF the poor thing decides it wants to live, aren't you sort of obligated to help give life saving measures?? This preceded a new bill called the Induced Infant Liability Act in the Illinois legislature in 2002. Later, it came up as the Born Alive Infant Protection Act in Congress. Only 15 members of the U.S. House opposed it, and it passed the Senate unanimously on a voice vote. Guess who voted against it both times? If you guessed Barak Obama, you would be right. Probably most people who are pro-choice would offer help to a baby if it is born alive. Barak Obama still thinks it's just a piece of garbage. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Typically late term abortions are only allowed for known birth defects. Is there any evidence that life saving efforts would have meant anything? Sounds a lot like a Terry Schiavo situation to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Typically late term abortions are only allowed for known birth defects. Is there any evidence that life saving efforts would have meant anything? Sounds a lot like a Terry Schiavo situation to me. Good article: http://www.barryyeoman.com/articles/gina.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 All the rights of any other human being? Like to vote? Are you confused between the terms human rights and citizenship rights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Are you confused between the terms human rights and citizenship rights? So what are your definition of human rights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Not only my definition of human rights - this is a portion of the UN's definition from December 1948 which I agree with: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The link is as follows: UN Resolution on Human Rights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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