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Collier Street Commons Proposal - Newman


Bingoloid

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Presented without comment, for comment:

 

http://www.binghamton-ny.gov/mayor-david-announces-city-receives-proposal-collier-street-commons-mixed-use-redevelopment-project

 

Newman’s proposal suggests expanding the parking facility by adding approximately 100 parking spots, as well as two floors of commercial/retail space and up to four floors of market rate housing (see attached conceptual rendering).

 

CollierStRendering.jpg

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What a monstrosity. I can almost guarantee that there will be water leakage into the retail levels.

 

When I looked at that artist's conception, I immediately thought of the "Swing" drawings that have been floating around engineering and marketing departments for years. It looks like someone's idea of how to kluge together three different concepts in the available space. Actually, the second cartoon probably better represents the design.

 

tyre_swing1.jpg

 

 

2012-11-19-0430-software-engineering-now

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I'd expect that any drainage problems are understood and considered solved. Underground parking seems to be cost-prohibitive around here, or maybe they're avoiding it due to flood concerns.

 

I do agree that it looks unusual by Binghamton standards, where there's so little modern construction. It's an abrupt change, but then so is the other project we've been discussing, and after urban renewal there's not a whole lot of consistency left anyway. I believe we've had threads before where we've talked about efforts in other cities to design more attractive parking.

 

Either way, will be interesting to see if they follow through with something.

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Guest BC Voice of Reason

It seems that at least one floor of the ramp would need to be reserved for the residential units. I would imagine a reserved parking spot would entice potential tenants. If that's the case the new ramp would have less parking capacity than the current ramp. It's good to see progress, the current ramp is obviously in a state of disrepair, but it seems that downtown will still be lacking parking even after this project.

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"two floors of commercial/retail space"

 

Translation: more bars along State Street for the increased college student population.

 

 

Although I suspect most of the space will be taken up with those rapidly-growing national franchises "Vacant" and "Available for Occupancy".

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I got curious about this after posting this morning and forwarded it to a friend of mine, who is a planner for the City of Toronto. He has an interest in Rust Belt issues, and I basically just explained the situation and asked him if this was a common design and if there were any known problems with it.

His response was, basically:

- "Oh, I live in one of these."

- This is common, and especially common in areas where the water table is a concern, like Florida. (Since underground parking garages downtown have had a bad time with the flooding, this and cost concerns, together, might be factors in this design.) He was going to email it to another planner in Tampa to see if he could get some more thoughts.

- Unless the builders are totally inept, there is no reason to expect leakage. It's a proven concept.

- It's uncommon to have *this much* parking in this type of design, usually two or three levels, tops, and he said that under other circumstances he would want the city to push for less parking before approving a permit. However, he acknowledged that it's a special and unusual case because it's replacing a garage serving an 18-story office building.

- Sometimes these are enclosed in glass to make them look more like "part of the building", so people often pass by these buildings and have no idea they're looking at a parking level.

He also sent me a research paper related to the topic. I haven't read it, but apparently, parking lots above retail storefronts is actually a very old strategy and was pioneered by Sears, it is considered suited to transitional neighborhoods.

http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/37872

I think part of the problem is that this area largely slipped into some kind of time warp around 1970, and anything new and modern "feels" controversial and startling. I think if they put glass on the parking decks, nobody would think twice about it.

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Many months ago I mentioned that the ramps all need to come down and that maybe one of the members of the holy order in Binghamton needs to poney up and contribute to rebuilding the ramps thus getting the parking needed for their projects. Glad to see that this is happening. Most definitely having them enclosed is the way to go, the outside could look anyway they wanted thus not looking like any kind of parking ramp. The addition of retail space being a bonus but residential I'm not too sure about,maybe petrol secretions and carbon monoxide fumes being a big issue.

No mater what they do I'm glad to see that the City is moving in a forward direction.

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Many months ago I mentioned that the ramps all need to come down and that maybe one of the members of the holy order in Binghamton needs to poney up and contribute to rebuilding the ramps thus getting the parking needed for their projects. Glad to see that this is happening. Most definitely having them enclosed is the way to go, the outside could look anyway they wanted thus not looking like any kind of parking ramp. The addition of retail space being a bonus but residential I'm not too sure about,maybe petrol secretions and carbon monoxide fumes being a big issue.

No mater what they do I'm glad to see that the City is moving in a forward direction.

 

I've gathered that what they sometimes do is set up the enclosure with top and bottom gaps of X number of inches so that air can flow through the parking deck. It's not really visible from the street, but the air exchange inside the deck is sufficient that nothing accumulates.

 

Anyway, about the forward direction, I agree. I moved to this area nearly 10 years ago now, and I remember being shocked at the complete lack of modern apartment housing seemingly anywhere in the Southern Tier. A few developments near Glendale in Endicott were new"er", but still lacking amenities and aging rapidly. Even Riverside Towers, while perfectly nice and offering impressive views, has become dated. The lack of new construction and updated infrastructure makes it very obvious to visitors that the area has been in decline for a long time and I think it makes people reluctant to consider doing business here or living here.

 

I've had two different people from former Soviet bloc countries tell me that even they think it seems "backwards", and these are people who remember having their electricity rationed and having to buy coffee on the black market. Two modern mixed-use developments in the center of the city and eliminating the eyesore aspect of that parking garage would be a very positive change for the character of the city, especially combined with all the good work going on to update and repurpose Chenango Place.

 

Let's hope they actually get it done.

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Guest The Devils Advocate

So - Binghamton currently owns the Collier St. garage and the land that it is on and according to public records, they are worth about $4.7 million. The city is looking for $8 million plus in state funding and grants to get the thing built.

 

Does Newman get the building built for free (taxpayer dollars) and collect rent on residential and commercial units as well?

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So - Binghamton currently owns the Collier St. garage and the land that it is on and according to public records, they are worth about $4.7 million. The city is looking for $8 million plus in state funding and grants to get the thing built.

 

Does Newman get the building built for free (taxpayer dollars) and collect rent on residential and commercial units as well?

 

It is reportedly a $38,000,000 project in total, with the costs for the parking garage section alone coming in around $15,000,000. (The quote from the city about above-ground parking garages running about $25,000 per parking space is accurate.) So, it's far from "free".

 

That existing garage needs about $1,500,000 in urgent repairs immediately, and will continue to decay rapidly. It definitely won't be worth $4,700,000 to anyone when it finally pancakes and slides into the street like the Ross/O'Neil buildings. I'd say they should sell it to Newman for $1, but really, they should give him $1 to take it.

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I looked at the rendering and said to friends someone's got to completely out of their minds to build a structure as this!

 

I see many problems with the design along with supports they would have to be enormous to hold that type of weight. An independent engineering firm would need to review the plans and weight bearing supports of the project. The water (rain) weight as well on the roof alone would be an important issue as well. The size of the supports would come into question to this project to support the weight above the retail space. (how many cars on one level then to each level and the 4 levels of apartments above it?

 

Someone's plan borders lunacy to a project of this magnitude with a large amount of taxpayer money! Newman only comes out when he smells a large profit and only then.

 

Oh question, will Newman get a pilot on this project as well as he did with the ugly student housing he built with mostly wood!

 

I would never trust it...............just my opinion.

 

Just the weight alone scares me to the size and weight of the project.

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I looked at the rendering and said to friends someone's got to completely out of their minds to build a structure as this!

 

It's 6 decks of parking. The current garage has 5. Think about this for a second: the retail levels are no more "scary" than they would be if they were another parking deck. They'll obviously be built to that standard. Marina City in Chicago has 19 floors of above-ground parking with another 40 floors of housing on top, and that was built in 1964. That's not even the tallest parking structure in Chicago, and 12+ parking garages are fairly common all over the country.

 

Newman isn't doing anything new here. It's just new to Binghamton.

 

I see many problems with the design the supports would have to be enormous to hold that type of weight. An independent engineering firm would need to review the plans and weight bearing supports of the plan. The water (rain) weight as well on the roof alone would be an important issue as well. The size of the supports would come into question to this project to support the weight above the retail space. (how many cars on one level then to each level and the 4 levels of apartments above it?

These are all standard concerns in any construction project, and they've been solved on many thousands of buildings for decades, plenty of them in cities smaller than Binghamton. There are well-documented, tested, proven standards and formulas, and as the article says, licensed engineers are already behind this proposal, both a local firm and an outside firm specializing in parking structures. Given the state of decay and disrepair in many of our (pre-)"historic" buildings, this would likely be one of the safest and most stable structures in the city.

Sorry, but this is just a non-issue. Binghamton's idea of a "big building" is just not actually very big. It's a 12-story building, literally the smallest that is commonly considered a high-rise, and part of it is an above-ground parking ramp. There is no moon shot here, no new problem with unknown answers. It's all been done to death.

Newman only comes out when he smells a large profit asnd only then.

 

I gather that this is what real estate developers do for a living. I don't know too many people who make a habit of doing business at a loss. Were we expecting a charitable non-profit to come in and put up a building for us? No offense, but no wonder nothing gets done around here.

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Guest The Devils Advocate

 

It is reportedly a $38,000,000 project in total, with the costs for the parking garage section alone coming in around $15,000,000. (The quote from the city about above-ground parking garages running about $25,000 per parking space is accurate.) So, it's far from "free".

 

That existing garage needs about $1,500,000 in urgent repairs immediately, and will continue to decay rapidly. It definitely won't be worth $4,700,000 to anyone when it finally pancakes and slides into the street like the Ross/O'Neil buildings. I'd say they should sell it to Newman for $1, but really, they should give him $1 to take it.

 

 

So Newman gets a taxpayer assisted building built, will more than likely (as he seems to always do) ask for some kind of tax break to get it built and collects rent and parking fees on top of all that?

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So Newman gets a taxpayer assisted building built, will more than likely (as he seems to always do) ask for some kind of tax break to get it built and collects rent and parking fees on top of all that?

 

My understanding is that the city operates the parking garage. Newman operates the housing and retail.

 

No matter what, the city was going for the grant money. That was always part of the package, as the city can't afford the $15,000,000 expense of a new parking garage on their own. They can't even afford the repairs to the garage they have now. (...which would also be taxpayer-funded, and ultimately, as decay continued, be more expensive than a new garage.) If the total project is $38,000,000, the garage is $15,000,000 of it, and the grant is $8,000,000, I'm not sure Newman's component is being subsidized at all. It actually sounds like Newman may be subsidizing the garage in exchange for the rights to a shared use of the property.

 

Whether he gets a property tax break, I don't know, but how much property tax revenue does that lot contribute right now? 73 Collier isn't on Taxlookup, so I'm inferring that its current status leaves it exempt and there's not one thin dime coming out of it. In this plan, the city gets an expanded garage, gets rid of a disgusting eyesore and safety hazard, makes that stretch of sidewalk useful to local business, and gets some new privately operated housing stock fit for decent human beings with disposable income to contribute to the community. Property tax revenue would be gravy.

 

It's a completely valid question, but I'm thinking we really don't have a lot of room to complain about this one.

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I did look back at the earlier Press story about the bid, and it did mention that David was planning to use the public-private partnership to cover a "funding gap" leftover after the part the state pays for. (Which amounts to about half of the cost of the garage.)

 

So my understanding is that, rather than taxpayers helping Newman develop the housing and retail, Newman is helping taxpayers build a parking garage in exchange for the right to co-develop the lot. Could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

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Guest The Devils Advocate

 

 

 

It's a completely valid question, but I'm thinking we really don't have a lot of room to complain about this one.

 

 

It's not a matter of complaining, just vetting this thing thoroughly especially if Newman and Rich David are involved. I don't trust either one of them.

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It's not a matter of complaining, just vetting this thing thoroughly especially if Newman and Rich David are involved. I don't trust either one of them.

 

What I do find wiggy is the part where they opened the bidding process, then had to close it early to meet the state's deadline for the grant application, when Newman was the only applicant. I'm sure they knew when the deadline was from the outset. I would not be surprised if this was intentionally structured this way so that nobody else would have time to prepare a proposal. The good ole' boys network at work, etc.

 

That doesn't mean it's a bad proposal, though. It just sounds like they already knew who they wanted to give this opportunity to.

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I looked at the rendering and said to friends someone's got to completely out of their minds to build a structure as this!

 

I see many problems with the design along with supports they would have to be enormous to hold that type of weight. An independent engineering firm would need to review the plans and weight bearing supports of the project. The water (rain) weight as well on the roof alone would be an important issue as well. The size of the supports would come into question to this project to support the weight above the retail space. (how many cars on one level then to each level and the 4 levels of apartments above it?

 

Someone's plan borders lunacy to a project of this magnitude with a large amount of taxpayer money! Newman only comes out when he smells a large profit and only then.

 

Oh question, will Newman get a pilot on this project as well as he did with the ugly student housing he built with mostly wood!

 

I would never trust it...............just my opinion.

 

Just the weight alone scares me to the size and weight of the project.

Jesus people do you ever leave Broome County???? These projects are the norm in cities. Go to Albany for petes sakes or Philly and you drive by eight story buildings that look all occupied but are actually three or four floors of parking in the middle. The facade is continued through the parking floors so you can't even tell. Drainage issues?! Are you serious??!! You're like the guy who, when you see a depiction of a suspension bridge,ask, "What about gravity? Three's no way this will work?" It makes perfect sense that this is the place Rod Serling was from.

 

As for the parking capacity, somebody made an observant point. (Holy sheet! Here on BCVoice! An observant point?!!!) I count 28 balconies in the drawing. Multiple that be two, and you get an approximate estimate of 60 units. Say one and a half cars per unit, and that's ninety spaces dedicated to the housing. I imagine the commercial tenants would also want some dedicated parking for customers. In the end, you have fewer parking spaces than before. It's funny, because wasn't Newman the one crying bloody murder about a parking crisis downtown and blocked the student housing expansion across the street?!

 

Last comment. Somebody said one of the wealthy around here need to pony up money. Newman is not "ponying up money." He is a shrewd businessman who rigs the game to make risk-free investments, like most of the other good ol boys around here. With this project, he'll demand public grants at the front end, and a tax PILOT at the back end, and he'll work it so he has about a .01% of losing money. He makes the public hold the risk, and he sucks up all the profit. That ain't a local samaritan ponying up. That's a 1%er profiting up.

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Putting glass on the parking floors might cause a bit of confusion about the function of the parking levels.

Solution=install a few tasteful signs that read "Paid Parking" in the window, one on each side of the street.

 

Anyone local is going to be anticipating there's still parking there anyways.

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Jesus people do you ever leave Broome County????

 

I was trying to avoid taking that route, but, yeah. :lol:

 

Putting glass on the parking floors might cause a bit of confusion about the function of the parking levels.

 

All I've ever seen anywhere I go is a sign at the entrance with an arrow pointing in. "Parking -->"

 

Nobody needs to know which floors are used for parking on the outside. If people are too dim to find the entrance without being able to physically see where the parking spaces are inside the buildng, they probably should not have a license. :lol:

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Jesus people do you ever leave Broome County????

 

Well, for some of us it is because we've lived here long enough to see all-too many grandiose ideas that went nowhere.

 

As a high schooler in the early '70s I was really impressed by the plans and images of the proposed changes for Binghamton through Urban Renewal, and used to go to their offices to pick up the plans and materials that were made available to the public. I thought the Marine Midland building was the coolest thing going. That, the other bank on the river (First City? - hard to remember now with all of the mergers) and the Government Plaza were about the only things from those original plans that seemed to get built. I'm not sure if the Arena was considered part of the UR or not.

 

Remember Mondev? Great big 2.5 million square foot project. Then after the folks in Canada milked all of the local rubes here, was finally built locally after it was scaled back to a 250,000 sq ft ho-hum structure. That initially was one-half office space, then pretty much became all offices.

 

Wilmorite was going to build great things along the Chenango River. Then nothing. And even before things were anywhere near being finalized, they floated talk of building a second project just west of Four Corners. So everything was razed on that supposed site. And it lay dormant for years until finally Chucksters showed up.

 

Yes, I know Newman rebuilt the Parkway, turned the Vestal Plaza into student housing and turned what was supposed to be Wilmorite's big deal into more student housing. But like many I'm withholding my enthusiasm for the time being.

 

I was about just graduating from high school when the Arena opened and at the time thought, "Wait a minute - the reports say that there have been discussions about building such a structure for 25 years. Broome County has a population of a quarter-million, and within driving distance has access to over a half-million. Yet what they built seats only 5,000, and is considered too small to bring in some acts and events? What's wrong with this picture?"

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