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Common Sense

Oh how "Christian" of Lourdes

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Ah yes, just as Jesus would do. This health care conglomerate, which pretends to be faith-based/Catholic, is requiring all its employees to subject themselves to involuntary experimental gene therapy that appears to be maiming and killing people - See https://vaers.hhs.gov/ even if they have no direct patient access. And oh, by the way, the vaccines use cells from aborted fetuses.  And while they claim they will "provide a process for requesting an exemption" you know damn well they'll work hard to get rid of anyone who doesn't comply. Just as Jesus would want them to. Funny, you take a look at the "Executive Leadership" of Ascension (formerly known as "Our Lady of Lourdes) https://ascension.org/About/Executive-Leadership and you don't see an awful lot of medical expertise in this highly - HIGHLY paid - "team of experts". Number crunchers with educations better suited to running factories dictating health care policy. Maybe that's why an aspirin costs $20. Just imagine the houses, boats, private jets, country club membership, etc. these "leaders" enjoy by forcing actual doctors and nurses to risk their lives with an unapproved "vaccine". I hope the lawsuits will be plenty and very successful. Whatever damages they're forced to pay to the survivors of Ascension "associates" who die or are disabled by these "vaccines" should come right out of the bank accounts of these "Executive Leaders." I have highlighted some of the more stunning hypocrisy and misinformation from their news release, and added a few minor editorial comments. They really need to stop the pretense of being a faith-based health provider. They're cashing in on a long-gone legacy when the Daughters of Charity ran the place as Our Lady of Lourdes. There's nothing faith-based about any of what these millionaire executives do.

For safety of communities, Ascension to require COVID-19 vaccination for associates

July 27, 2021

As the COVID-19 pandemic continues and new variants of the virus emerge, (notice this health care megacorporation fails to mention that as viruses mutate into "variants" they become much less lethal) Ascension continues to focus on ensuring our associates are protected (from a virus with a 99.9% survival rate, and the "vaccines" killing more people than the actual virus these days) – for the safety of patients and visitors, our associates, our families and loved ones, and the community.

Like many health systems across the country, including in many of our markets, we are moving to require our associates to be vaccinated against COVID-19. Ascension conducted a thorough moral and ethical analysis as part of the decision-making process. This decision is rooted in our Mission commitment to leading with quality and safety. As a healthcare provider and as a Catholic ministry, (since they've gone out of their way to mention how "Catholic" they are, perhaps they could include a phrase or two explaining how it's acceptable to force their employees to submit to involuntary injection of "vaccines" using cells from aborted fetuses in their PR statement) ensuring we have a culture of safety for our associates, patients and communities is foundational to our work.

Tens of thousands of Ascension associates have already been vaccinated with the available vaccines, (no doubt because they feared the inevitable mandate, which now has come to pass) as have millions of people across the country and the world. But we must do more to overcome this pandemic as we provide safe environments for those we serve. (There never WAS a pandemic. The Ascension ER/ICU census was NEVER very high during the whole time they were sending out all the scare porn).

Ascension will require that all associates be vaccinated against COVID-19, whether or not they provide direct patient care, and whether they work in our sites of care or remotely. This includes associates employed by subsidiaries and partners; physicians and advanced practice providers, whether employed or independent; and volunteers and vendors entering Ascension facilities. (Any of the "Executive Leadership team take time out from the country club golf outings and trips to the Caymans to read the Nuremberg Code?)

Our timeline for completing the vaccine series and meeting this requirement will be Nov. 12, 2021 (nice..so just before Thanksgiving and Christmas, they'll be kicking out the door any who dare refuse the jab...just as Jesus would do..) This timing is aligned with Ascension’s annual influenza vaccination requirement and we will follow a similar implementation process. (Since Ascension's overlords at the CDC are discontinuing the PCR test they've been using to scare us with skewed numbers for a year and a half, because it can't tell the difference between the flu and COVID, which testing will Ascension be using to verify COVID cases and flu cases this year and why should anyone trust them?) In those instances when someone may not be able to get vaccinated due to a medical condition or strongly held religious belief, Ascension will provide a process for requesting an exemption similar to the process we use for the annual influenza vaccine. (What they REALLY mean is: get jabbed or get another job.) In addition, this requirement will be implemented in accordance with collective bargaining agreements reached between Ascension business entities and unions representing our associates.

Together, we will put this pandemic behind us (it already is) so that we can continue to focus on meeting the needs of those who come to us for care. (including a large number of our "associates" who end up disabled or dead because we ordered them to be lab rats).

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I have simply HAD IT with the health care industry. I would have expected a bunch of DOCTORS to be in the "executive leadership" of this organization, AND people of faith. The CEO makes upward of $3.5 million a year. And has NO medical background. And is ordering rank and file workers, under threat of losing their livelihoods, to get an experimental goo injected into their veins. Even though the CDC's impossible to navigate VAERS database indicates at least 12,000 people have DIED after taking these "vaccines." I've had it up to here with hypocrisy and lies. NOBODY should be forced to choose between keeping their job and submitting involuntarily to an injection they neither want nor need. It's disgusting that over the last year and a half, people have actually started to think such mandates are OK.

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I agree no one should be forced to vax. That is a personal decision for every person. I will never look down on either. Let people choose. 

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10 hours ago, Bo Marsh said:

I agree no one should be forced to vax. That is a personal decision for every person. I will never look down on either. Let people choose. 

Respectfully, people are not forced to vax by this approach.  Rather, they are forced to experience the consequences of their choice, rather than transferring that cost to the rest of society. Expect more of this approach, as well as proof of vaccination to participate in events where spread is possible.  Conceptually, this is similar to the “choice” to smoke.  People are free to smoke, but can’t endanger others with their bad decisions and they pay extra taxes to defray the costs of their “choice”.  I would also expect insurance companies to increase premiums for those who “choose” not to vaccinate - keeping the costs of the “choice” within the group making the choice.  The actuaries who determine premiums tend to be unpersuaded by anti vax websites and actually understand how the VAERS data is to be used.  In both cases, the health effects of the choice are not in doubt.  

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2 hours ago, Jacksonx3 said:

Respectfully, people are not forced to vax by this approach.  Rather, they are forced to experience the consequences of their choice, rather than transferring that cost to the rest of society. Expect more of this approach, as well as proof of vaccination to participate in events where spread is possible.  Conceptually, this is similar to the “choice” to smoke.  People are free to smoke, but can’t endanger others with their bad decisions and they pay extra taxes to defray the costs of their “choice”.  I would also expect insurance companies to increase premiums for those who “choose” not to vaccinate - keeping the costs of the “choice” within the group making the choice.  The actuaries who determine premiums tend to be unpersuaded by anti vax websites and actually understand how the VAERS data is to be used.  In both cases, the health effects of the choice are not in doubt.  

Wow. You'd have made a good Jew in the ghettos. "The consequences of their choice," huh? Some choice: do what the government tells you or lose your job. Where in that scenario does it make room for human rights?

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10 minutes ago, Common Sense said:

Wow. You'd have made a good Jew in the ghettos. "The consequences of their choice," huh? Some choice: do what the government tells you or lose your job. Where in that scenario does it make room for human rights?

Nice ad hominem.  Now let’s try facts.  This is the employer, not the government.  It is an agency responsible for health care and it is becoming the norm.  Albany Med just did the same - there are tons of others.  My choice is to have those who provide health care follow the recommendations of scientists.  Similar to smoking, do something known to be hazardous if you must.  Just don’t expose others to your bad choices.  The rest of the world doesn’t believe something just because you think it.  You shouldn’t either. 

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4 minutes ago, Jacksonx3 said:

Nice ad hominem.  Now let’s try facts.  This is the employer, not the government.  In an agency responsible for health care.  My choice is to have those who provide health care follow the recommendations of scientists.  Similar to smoking, do something known to be hazardous if you must.  Just don’t expose others to your bad choices.  The rest of the world doesn’t believe something just because you think it.  You shouldn’t either. 

Would it interest you at all to know that not every "scientist" thinks we ought to continue with these vaccines? And not every doctor? I could spend all day every day posting link after link from people way smarter than you obviously are, but you would, in typical "yes master, tell me what I should do!" fashion, ignore it or find some reason to dismiss the source as biased. Frankly, the smoking analogy made me chuckle, unless I picture a doctor injecting me with someone else's lung cancer cells. You actually think the "employer" is the one mandating the vaccines, and not the government? Where health care is concerned, they are one and the same, anyway. Health care gets its marching (and jabbing) orders from the government and vice versa. The "directives" are usually written on big checks. I don't really need to fall back on ad hominem insults. Your own words made any insults I might come up with redundant.
https://freedomfirstnetwork.com/2021/08/doctors-share-their-own-vaccine-injury-horror-stories-revealing-that-vaccines-are-devastating-the-medical-profession

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“I don’t need to fall back on ad hominem attacks” but …“people a lot smarter than you”.  Lol. Of course you could post links. That’s how confirmation bias works.  You start with what you believe and search for something  that supports it.  You will always find it, especially if your sources are freedom first network, bitchute, infowars, YouTube, etc.  There will always be outliers in the medical and scientific community.   That’s why there are worthless supplements hawked by doctors, opioid prescriptions sold, etc.  That’s why scientific consensus is used to make policy.   Freedom first network is not a peer reviewed journal and a single study is not scientific consensus.  Believe what you will, but don’t expose me to it.  

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CS is correct. The government gives the "guidance'.  And here is Governor DeSantis and Florida's hospitals doing the same thing we have always done...the APPROPRIATE consequence for not getting vaccine isn't to fire them. The appropriate response is to WEAR A MASK...an N95 in this article's case. Gee, I just don't know how we managed before the vaccines came out.

People are unique individuals. 

That being said, last night I was literally texting with the east coast regional director of an organization, who, coincidentally to this article, has assured me a job in Tampa as soon as I can make that happen. It didn't have anything to do with vaccine, I just want to be closer to mom in these last years of her life and I miss my brother.

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2021/08/06/florida-gov-ron-desantis-opposes-mandatory-vaccination-for-healthcare-workers

There are consequences for acting like communists too.

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2 minutes ago, ginger said:

The appropriate response is to WEAR A MASK...an N95 in this article's case. 

We tried this, but the “but muh freedoms” crowd found that problematic too.  One of the factors contributing to the current situation is that we relied on the honor system in terms of masking I.e. persons who are unvaccinated are still supposed to wear masks - but often don’t for a variety of reasons.  This again shifts the burden for their behavior, be it due to misinformation or outright malice, back to the mainstream to protect themselves.  That’s not generally how it works.  I’ve rarely heard the case made that “if you don’t like my drunk driving you need to wear a seatbelt or stay off the roads when I drive drunk” - I actually have heard those words said, but they are not mainstream thought and we don’t organize our laws around them.  

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32 minutes ago, Jacksonx3 said:

America’s Frontline Doctors.  Lol

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/90536

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/back-away-americas-frontline-doctors

but that’s ok because someone on the comments section said…   Lol

 

I see what you did there. Not too long after typing this, by the way:
"Of course you could post links. That’s how confirmation bias works.  You start with what you believe and search for something  that supports it.  You will always find it, especially if your sources are freedom first network, bitchute, infowars, YouTube, etc.  There will always be outliers in the medical and scientific community."
You might just as well insult me for being insulting or ridicule me for ridiculing you.

"That’s why scientific consensus is used to make policy.   Freedom first network is not a peer reviewed journal and a single study is not scientific consensus.  Believe what you will, but don’t expose me to it."
Scientific consensus isn't used to make policy. Politics is used to make policy. To believe otherwise is naive. You seem to be in the habit of making an assertion and then proceeding to sabotage your own assertion with your next hypocritical post. Look, I get it. You like having the government tell you what to do. You think it's perfectly OK for them to spend a year and a half scaring the bejesus out of people over a Chinese bioweapon that our beloved science leaders helped to fund, and that happens to come with a 99.9% survivability rate. You enjoy watching big Pharma collect billions in profits per quarter by selling the world the "cure" for the disease they created. It's a very effective marketing strategy. You enjoy having elected bureaucrats issue executive orders and emergency directives that make no sense and fly directly in the face of known scientific facts as long as it provides you with a sense of security that "something" is being done to protect you. The government relies upon that compliant behavior. You do NOT enjoy being presented with the opinions of other well-respected medical professionals that contradict what you believe to be true. You automatically dismiss any information if it comes from sources other than those in your own personal Bookmarks folder.

Your lol'ing and referencing "comment sections" is a not-very-clever attempt to compensate for your weak arguments. I wouldn't believe anything I wrote, either, if I actually only got my information from biased sources and comment sections. Unfortunately for you, I actually know how to research factual information and make informed and compelling arguments on my position. I can't say the same for everyone, but you do give the illusion that you try.

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36 minutes ago, Jacksonx3 said:

We tried this, but the “but muh freedoms” crowd found that problematic too.  One of the factors contributing to the current situation is that we relied on the honor system in terms of masking I.e. persons who are unvaccinated are still supposed to wear masks - but often don’t for a variety of reasons.  This again shifts the burden for their behavior, be it due to misinformation or outright malice, back to the mainstream to protect themselves.  That’s not generally how it works.  I’ve rarely heard the case made that “if you don’t like my drunk driving you need to wear a seatbelt or stay off the roads when I drive drunk” - I actually have heard those words said, but they are not mainstream thought and we don’t organize our laws around them.  

What, exactly is our "current situation" that scares you so? You are no doubt aware (since the information is readily accessible on even the CDC's own site) that most people who get this virus survive it just fine; a significant number of infections are so mild you literally have to be tested to find out if you even have it. The vast majority of humans who have been exposed to it have survived it without any medical intervention. So what are the masks for? Throughout recorded history, masks have been a sign of subservience and slavery. The ones they've had us all wearing are useless against a virus particle. What's the stupid 6 feet apart idea supposed to accomplish? Can the virus only jump 5 feet 11.5 inches? Are there millions of people dropping dead in the streets? You're not curious as to why the government has clamped down on spreading the word about Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine and other cheap, well-tested, effective pharmaceuticals to combat and cure this flu? Straw man arguments about drunk drivers isn't helping you appear any more intelligent.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled thread topic: MANDATED VACCINATIONS, good or bad?

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On balance, at this time under the circumstances I tend tepidly toward good in some circumstances.  

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Our current situation is 600,000+ deaths attributed by the cdc to covid - of 35,000,000 known cases (approximately 10% of the population, 90 to go, do the math).  That does not include persons with long term sequella to the disease.   It is convenient to speak in terms of percentages and does not capture the sheer numbers of people affected.  The masking, subservience, slavery argument is a nice touch.  Your creative writing skills are excellent.  So are Stephen King’s but that doesn’t mean that the things in his books happened.  I stand by the drunk driving analogy with one exception. - about 10,000 deaths are attributed to drunk driving per year and yet we legislate behavior.  And thank you so much for the compliment as to how I “try” to make compelling arguments.   It seems that you are the one here trying to prove how intelligent they are.  I know that all my googling will never hold a candle to the accumulated knowledge of our scientific community.  This is not debate club, not talk radio, and the person with the snappiest comeback and most flamboyant writing style isn’t the winner.   So thanks for the witty repartee, but you remain on the wrong side of this one.

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2 minutes ago, Jacksonx3 said:

Our current situation is 600,000+ deaths attributed by the cdc to covid - of 35,000,000 known cases (approximately 10% of the population, 90 to go, do the math).  That does not include persons with long term sequella to the disease.   It is convenient to speak in terms of percentages and does not capture the sheer numbers of people affected.  The masking, subservience, slavery argument is a nice touch.  Your creative writing skills are excellent.  So are Stephen King’s but that doesn’t mean that the things in his books happened.  I stand by the drunk driving analogy with one exception. - about 10,000 deaths are attributed to drunk driving per year and yet we legislate behavior.  And thank you so much for the compliment as to how I “try” to make compelling arguments.   It seems that you are the one here trying to prove how intelligent they are.  I know that all my googling will never hold a candle to the accumulated knowledge of our scientific community.  This is not debate club, not talk radio, and the person with the snappiest comeback and most flamboyant writing style isn’t the winner.   So thanks for the witty repartee, but you remain on the wrong side of this one.

Unless you can say with certainty (I happen to know 100% you can't) that all of those reported 600,000 deaths were actually FROM COVID, it's a meaningless number. How many flu deaths were there in the same time period? Not curious about why there were so FEW? And "known cases" is just a phrase. It doesn't even scratch the surface of validation. Nobody will ever know how many people actually got exposed to the virus, who actually died because they got exposed, how many people who DID get bad cases might NOT have died if the government hadn't squelched the availability of HCQ, Ivermectin, and other non-vaccine protocols. I couldn't care less about "creative writing skills" or witty repartee. I care about facts and informed citizens. To see American citizens actually coming down in favor of the government and employers ordering them to get an injection they may not want or need under threat of segregation from society or loss of their job is disheartening. The one thing that is hampering both of our arguments is the sheer volume of available information out there that neither of us can consistently trust. I'm not a doctor, nor do I really know anything about medicine, per se. I only know what I learn from other sources. And it's frustrating to not be able to place any real trust in many of the sources. With respect, I disagree that I am wrong about not wanting the government to order our personal medical decisions. I'm not sick. I am not in the habit of getting tested to see if I AM sick. I'm not getting anyone else sick. Our scientific community today seems to believe differently than those of past generations, where only the known sick were quarantined, and that an illness couldn't be labeled a deadly pandemic if you literally had to test most people to see if they even had it. But while they have you and me quarreling, they seem to have let China off the hook for starting this whole thing.    

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Ok last one.   I will stick with the best numbers science has to offer.  Other stuff is just conjecture- I don’t have to disprove it, you have to prove it.  That’s how science works.  Conspiracy theories, on the other hand, require that someone prove that they’re wrong about the “question” they have about the accepted data.  It’s almost impossible and, if you do, the person just jumps to the next “question”. The alternate therapies have not yet held up to scrutiny.  They may with time, but not now.  Same with conjecture about flu - could be, but could also be due to decreased contact and better infection control procedures I.e. hand washing and masks.  I know I used hand sanitizer more in the past year than in the preceding decade.  

The problem is, or at least one problem is, nobody wakes up and says “I’m going to get covid today and spread it to my friends, family and coworkers while I don’t even know that I have it”.   That’s not how this works (except for psychopaths!  They exist but are not the norm. Lol).  It is mainly airborne particles that can remain suspended even after the spreader has left (this is the latest science on the topic and I admit it has been a moving target as the knowledge base has increased).  People are contagious before they know that they have it and often mistake early symptoms for something they have had before like a cold or the flu.   It is estimated with the delta variant that an infected individual will infect 6 others.   Do the math and before too many x6’s you’ll see the exponential growth that epidemiologists are worried about.  And viruses are adaptive to ensure their own survival, every infection gives them a chance to mutate into a strain that is more contagious or more lethal.  So, every infection is a risk point for everyone.  Misinformation can be deadly.  There is a ton of it out there and now infection control has been mixed up with political loyalty.  Bad combination imho.  

I will definitely agree with you that we have spent entirely too much time going back and forth about this.  I for one am going outside to enjoy the day and hope that you do too - if that’s how you choose to spend your leisure time!

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6 hours ago, Jacksonx3 said:

Ok last one.   I will stick with the best numbers science has to offer.  Other stuff is just conjecture- I don’t have to disprove it, you have to prove it.  That’s how science works.  Conspiracy theories, on the other hand, require that someone prove that they’re wrong about the “question” they have about the accepted data.  It’s almost impossible and, if you do, the person just jumps to the next “question”. The alternate therapies have not yet held up to scrutiny.  They may with time, but not now.  Same with conjecture about flu - could be, but could also be due to decreased contact and better infection control procedures I.e. hand washing and masks.  I know I used hand sanitizer more in the past year than in the preceding decade.  

The problem is, or at least one problem is, nobody wakes up and says “I’m going to get covid today and spread it to my friends, family and coworkers while I don’t even know that I have it”.   That’s not how this works (except for psychopaths!  They exist but are not the norm. Lol).  It is mainly airborne particles that can remain suspended even after the spreader has left (this is the latest science on the topic and I admit it has been a moving target as the knowledge base has increased).  People are contagious before they know that they have it and often mistake early symptoms for something they have had before like a cold or the flu.   It is estimated with the delta variant that an infected individual will infect 6 others.   Do the math and before too many x6’s you’ll see the exponential growth that epidemiologists are worried about.  And viruses are adaptive to ensure their own survival, every infection gives them a chance to mutate into a strain that is more contagious or more lethal.  So, every infection is a risk point for everyone.  Misinformation can be deadly.  There is a ton of it out there and now infection control has been mixed up with political loyalty.  Bad combination imho.  

I will definitely agree with you that we have spent entirely too much time going back and forth about this.  I for one am going outside to enjoy the day and hope that you do too - if that’s how you choose to spend your leisure time!

It was a lovely summer day, for sure.
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
We have both adopted the position that the other is misinformed and typing out conspiracy theories built on foundations of sand because our sources are faulty.
That's the trouble with not having reliable trustworthy sources for news that people of all political stripes can turn to. We have echo chambers that sing to their particular choirs. It doesn't serve us well as a population trying to figure out what our difficulties are and how to solve them together.

I maintain that COVID was a weapon created and unleashed specifically to get rid of Donald Trump. I could cite source after source of what I consider reliable intel to demonstrate WHY I believe that, but you wouldn't look at it, read it, hear it so it would be a waste of time.

I maintain that the vaccines were rushed to market without fully being tested, against all historic protocols, and that the companies that created them, who are raking in HUGE profits from them, have extremely spotty track records on safety. They also insisted on being held harmless, so no matter what horrible things their experimental goos might do, they would not be liable. Bill Gates is among those providing the funding for these vaccines, and he is on record as being in favor of depopulating the planet. I also maintain that reliable sources - even the CDC - have reported more adverse effects and deaths from these "vaccines" than in all other previous clinical trials combined. In the past, vaccine trials were halted after a relatively small number of deaths. VAERS data suggests 12,000 deaths so far from these. Why haven't they been halted? If anything, the relentless drumbeat, threats, cajoling, bribing, shaming, and billion dollar ad blitz has accelerated, while those pushing the vaccines put NO focus whatsoever on HCQ and Ivermectin.

You said "alternate therapies have not yet held up to scrutiny." That is demonstrably untrue. Again, the information is out there if you seek it. There have now been hundreds of studies on the efficacy of these drugs. The fact that they were forbidden from being given likely caused many of the deaths.

Can you provide a link to what test they're using to identify the "Delta Variant?" They sure talk about it a lot but I don't believe they've ever defined how they KNOW it's the "Delta Variant" that's surging and how they test for that specific variant. They know that most people will just hear that stuff and accept it at face value.

Your exponential growth argument doesn't impress me, given the fact that hundreds of millions of humans have been exposed to this thing and the vast majority of them survived. People get sick. People spread sickness to each other. That's not usually something to be deathly afraid of. The flu makes its way through our society every year. Usually kills a lot of people - the people in the same risk categories as those most susceptible to severe COVID cases. They've NEVER gone on the full court offensive for the flu shot that they've done for this virus...including having actual doctors go on television and say people who won't get the vaccine should be forced into isolation camps. Disgusting. The over the top response for a year and a half to a nearly universally survivable bug ought to raise a red flag or two in everyone.

It's been more than a year and a half now...we've all been around a lot of people a lot of times, with and without masks on. Some of us work in settings where there are a LOT of people around every day. We shop, we socialize, we worship at our church. And in a year and a half, I know the grand total of ONE person who got COVID and died, and that person was not very healthy in the best of times. The shut down our world for no good reason....other than to hurt the roaring Trump economy and enable the theft of the presidency.

Anyway...round and round we go...neither one of us convincing the other of anything.

But the original point of the thread was to call out the supposedly "Christian" hospital conglomerate forcing its employees to take a shot against their will.

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Make up whatever nonsequeturial analogy/stories in your head you want. The only people not wearing a mask ARE VACCINATED.

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10 hours ago, Common Sense said:

It was a lovely summer day, for sure.
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
We have both adopted the position that the other is misinformed and typing out conspiracy theories built on foundations of sand because our sources are faulty.
That's the trouble with not having reliable trustworthy sources for news that people of all political stripes can turn to. We have echo chambers that sing to their particular choirs. It doesn't serve us well as a population trying to figure out what our difficulties are and how to solve them together.

I maintain that COVID was a weapon created and unleashed specifically to get rid of Donald Trump. I could cite source after source of what I consider reliable intel to demonstrate WHY I believe that, but you wouldn't look at it, read it, hear it so it would be a waste of time.

I maintain that the vaccines were rushed to market without fully being tested, against all historic protocols, and that the companies that created them, who are raking in HUGE profits from them, have extremely spotty track records on safety. They also insisted on being held harmless, so no matter what horrible things their experimental goos might do, they would not be liable. Bill Gates is among those providing the funding for these vaccines, and he is on record as being in favor of depopulating the planet. I also maintain that reliable sources - even the CDC - have reported more adverse effects and deaths from these "vaccines" than in all other previous clinical trials combined. In the past, vaccine trials were halted after a relatively small number of deaths. VAERS data suggests 12,000 deaths so far from these. Why haven't they been halted? If anything, the relentless drumbeat, threats, cajoling, bribing, shaming, and billion dollar ad blitz has accelerated, while those pushing the vaccines put NO focus whatsoever on HCQ and Ivermectin.

You said "alternate therapies have not yet held up to scrutiny." That is demonstrably untrue. Again, the information is out there if you seek it. There have now been hundreds of studies on the efficacy of these drugs. The fact that they were forbidden from being given likely caused many of the deaths.

Can you provide a link to what test they're using to identify the "Delta Variant?" They sure talk about it a lot but I don't believe they've ever defined how they KNOW it's the "Delta Variant" that's surging and how they test for that specific variant. They know that most people will just hear that stuff and accept it at face value.

Your exponential growth argument doesn't impress me, given the fact that hundreds of millions of humans have been exposed to this thing and the vast majority of them survived. People get sick. People spread sickness to each other. That's not usually something to be deathly afraid of. The flu makes its way through our society every year. Usually kills a lot of people - the people in the same risk categories as those most susceptible to severe COVID cases. They've NEVER gone on the full court offensive for the flu shot that they've done for this virus...including having actual doctors go on television and say people who won't get the vaccine should be forced into isolation camps. Disgusting. The over the top response for a year and a half to a nearly universally survivable bug ought to raise a red flag or two in everyone.

It's been more than a year and a half now...we've all been around a lot of people a lot of times, with and without masks on. Some of us work in settings where there are a LOT of people around every day. We shop, we socialize, we worship at our church. And in a year and a half, I know the grand total of ONE person who got COVID and died, and that person was not very healthy in the best of times. The shut down our world for no good reason....other than to hurt the roaring Trump economy and enable the theft of the presidency.

Anyway...round and round we go...neither one of us convincing the other of anything.

But the original point of the thread was to call out the supposedly "Christian" hospital conglomerate forcing its employees to take a shot against their will.

Glad you enjoyed the day outdoors.  I certainly did.  
 

Your assessment of the crux of our differences seems accurate.  I believe that those sources for unbiased information exist, but have been devalued by those with ulterior motives, be they individual, partly or international political.  One of the things we know about humans store information is that even if information seems suspect when heard the first time, when we hear it again we internally say “oh yeah, I’ve heard about that” and accept it less critically. We tend to forget that we questioned it the first time.  Hence the need to repeat the lies over and over - they become the truth.  To me, the vehicle for objectivity is science which has rigorous protocols for accepting facts.  I do not think that those protocols should be modified to accept notions that people “intuit” to be facts in order to achieve consensus.  As an aside, there is an excellent book by Tom Nichols called “The Death of Expertise”.  It is built around the premise that access to information via the internet has created legions of people who think that their internet “research” puts their knowledge base at a par with experts who have spent their lives studying a topic area.  It is an interesting read, you may enjoy it. 
 

You are correct, the Trump connection would be a total waste of time.   Viewing the pandemic as a political issue is a big part of how we got here.

In terms of the vaccines, they received emergency approval.  That is based on an established protocol for risk rewards assessment.  Please stop with the VAERS data.  Your other writings show that you have researched enough to know that this is a misuse of this data.  VAERS is raw data indicating only that an outcome occurred after a vaccine, not that the vaccine caused it.  If you are curious, and it seems you are, spend some time researching the placebo effect and some common outcomes in the placebo group. 
 

This captures the process for determining delta prevalence pretty well.  
“Mutations in viruses are neither new nor unexpected. Viral mutations and variants in the United States are routinely monitored through sequence-based surveillance, laboratory studies, and epidemiological investigations. The B.1.617.2 (delta) variant of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), has contributed to a surge in cases across the globe, and in the U.S., data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) suggest that currently more than 80 percent of cases of COVID-19 are the Delta variant.”

https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/delta-vaccines-faqs.php

They do this for a living and studied for years before entry into the workforce.  You won’t find “what about” questions on the internet that they haven’t thought of (refer back to “The Death of Expertise.).  They use a spread number of 4 others infected per infection rather than the 6 I used - I’d like to know the current estimate.

Finally, we have very different experiences in terms real life impact of the virus.  You are fortunate to have minimal personal impact.  I have had several friends and acquaintances who have been impacted, including several deaths.  Some were frail, some not.  My father had covid.  He survived, which is nothing short of amazing given his age, but spent six months in rehab after and has lost significant function.  You may consider him a necessary casualty in the fight for freedom.  I wouldn’t wish what he went through on anyone and will take any steps I can to help stop the spread.   
 

Which leads to the Christian hospital part.    My catholic school years, dim as the recollection may be, taught me that my responsibility was to do the right thing even if I don’t want to, even if I face personal costs.  I don’t always succeed but I try.  And a health care organization certainly can make the decision that their staff need to be leaders in the currently accepted medical intervention to prevent spread of a disease that spreads death and long term health consequences.  This is true both on an infection control and a messaging level.  The hospital leadership has to make a call.   They did.  If the staff disagree for personal reasons, they can make the decision they want to, realizing that the decision also involves remaining with the organization.  Freedom to choose doesn’t mean freedom to choose and not experience consequences, nor does it include making choices that impact others.

So, having sufficiently beaten this topic to death I think we should agree to disagree.   I wish you the best and hope we get another beautiful day to enjoy.  Despite no real movement on either part it’s been an interesting discussion.

 

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