Centurion Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 This is an interesting link. It might take a few minutes to view, but if you do take the time, I have some following questions. http://tiny.cc/PepeI Here are some thoughts to consider: Is there more to the Iraq war than just deposing Saddam? Maybe not originally but perhaps it could now be a surrogate war against Iran, Saudi extremists, Muslim extremists and, dare I say, Al Qaeda? Who "wins" if we pull out tomorrow? Many, and they're all bad. Iran for one since they are Shiite controlled. The majority religion in Iraq is Shiite. If we pull out tomorrow, it is likely to result in an incredibly bloody civil war with the Shiites prevailing. Then it is likely that Iran and Iraq become allies with shared Muslim extremist politic & policies. Iraq oil revenues could help increase Iran's nuclear development. Could that possibly make nuclear weapons more quickly available to terrorists? Al Qaeda. Absolutely. A win encourages all radicals to ramp up their efforts worldwide because even the GREAT SATIN could not prevail against them. With Iraq and the Middle East controlled by extremists, could all oil dependent nations be held hostage by these extremists? Not sure but the possibility increases. If it could happen, it's scary to contemplate. Knowing that a conflict with Muslim extremists was unavoidable, could the US have chosen a location to do battle with them to isolate the conflict to one area rather that the entire world including our home soil? I don't know but it seems like all the extremists are being drawn to Iraq to fight us there. My preference would be to attract all these Muslim extremists to one place to fight this battle rather than encourage it to be worldwide. It is incredibly tragic for the Iraqis that it has to be their country. If we roll over in Iraq like Spain did after the bombing there, what message does this send to the extremists? As far as I can see, it's over. Then NO ONE has the backbone or the capability to stand up to them. They ultimately take over the world. just as they are now doing in Europe. Could a stable prosperous western friendly nation in the Middle East be of benefit? No brainer. Yes! If other Muslim extremists saw a moderate Muslim nation prospering, it could be an incredible incentive for Muslims to ignore the extremist and encourage a more moderate government in their nation. It will be a challenge in Iraq, but is it worth the effort? You tell me. In summary, I don't want to debate how we got there, I just would like debate on what we do now. This is one of the most crucial times in the history of our world. Our decisions now will have a major impact on how the world looks for our kids and grandkids. Do we have the backbone and the courage to make the right decision. Don't know. Not sure what that decision is. Spain rolled over after one bombing. Are we going to be like Spain? It's much more complicate than "Bush lied". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 OHHH REALLY WELCOME ABOARD FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JEZZZZZZZZZZ WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 This is an interesting link. It might take a few minutes to view, but if you do take the time, I have some following questions. http://tiny.cc/PepeI Here are some thoughts to consider: Is there more to the Iraq war than just deposing Saddam? Maybe not originally but perhaps it could now be a surrogate war against Iran, Saudi extremists, Muslim extremists and, dare I say, Al Qaeda? Who "wins" if we pull out tomorrow? Many, and they're all bad. Iran for one since they are Shiite controlled. The majority religion in Iraq is Shiite. If we pull out tomorrow, it is likely to result in an incredibly bloody civil war with the Shiites prevailing. Then it is likely that Iran and Iraq become allies with shared Muslim extremist politic & policies. Iraq oil revenues could help increase Iran's nuclear development. Could that possibly make nuclear weapons more quickly available to terrorists? Al Qaeda. Absolutely. A win encourages all radicals to ramp up their efforts worldwide because even the GREAT SATIN could not prevail against them. With Iraq and the Middle East controlled by extremists, could all oil dependent nations be held hostage by these extremists? Not sure but the possibility increases. If it could happen, it's scary to contemplate. Knowing that a conflict with Muslim extremists was unavoidable, could the US have chosen a location to do battle with them to isolate the conflict to one area rather that the entire world including our home soil? I don't know but it seems like all the extremists are being drawn to Iraq to fight us there. My preference would be to attract all these Muslim extremists to one place to fight this battle rather than encourage it to be worldwide. It is incredibly tragic for the Iraqis that it has to be their country. If we roll over in Iraq like Spain did after the bombing there, what message does this send to the extremists? As far as I can see, it's over. Then NO ONE has the backbone or the capability to stand up to them. They ultimately take over the world. just as they are now doing in Europe. Could a stable prosperous western friendly nation in the Middle East be of benefit? No brainer. Yes! If other Muslim extremists saw a moderate Muslim nation prospering, it could be an incredible incentive for Muslims to ignore the extremist and encourage a more moderate government in their nation. It will be a challenge in Iraq, but is it worth the effort? You tell me. In summary, I don't want to debate how we got there, I just would like debate on what we do now. This is one of the most crucial times in the history of our world. Our decisions now will have a major impact on how the world looks for our kids and grandkids. Do we have the backbone and the courage to make the right decision. Don't know. Not sure what that decision is. Spain rolled over after one bombing. Are we going to be like Spain? It's much more complicate than "Bush lied". I read the whole thing, and it is filled with many assumptions which I do not believe to be the case at all. You said "Knowing that a conflict with Muslim extremists was unavoidable, could the US have chosen a location to do battle with them to isolate the conflict to one area rather that the entire world including our home soil?" I dont agree. Actually Binladens demands were for us to get out of saudi Arabia. After 911, we did just that. I dont think it was unavoidable. You said "If we roll over in Iraq like Spain did after the bombing there, what message does this send to the extremists?[/b] As far as I can see, it's over. Then NO ONE has the backbone or the capability to stand up to them. They ultimately take over the world. just as they are now doing in Europe." If we leave and anyone look at Iraq and calls that "victory" for the other side, I would have to disagree. I think other nations get the message that their country can also be bombed back to the stoneage and be left to clean up their own filth. Kadafi got that message quick and straightened up quickly! Also - Spain - rolling over? They decided not to participate in a war against Iraq - no bombings since. You said "Could a stable prosperous western friendly nation in the Middle East be of benefit?[/b] No brainer. Yes! If other Muslim extremists saw a moderate Muslim nation prospering, it could be an incredible incentive for Muslims to ignore the extremist and encourage a more moderate government in their nation. It will be a challenge in Iraq, but is it worth the effort? You tell me." Again I would have to disagree. The current Iraq governemnt is not western friendly, most of the people in the government (shiat sp) are overwhelmingly anti western - to the point that saddam was actually more pro westersn - which by the way, is why we installed him there and propped him up for so long. Even near the end - he was still selling us cheap oil. I also do not see how this coutnry could ever prosper without a dictator in place to hold off the competing factions from killing ewach other and seperating into different countries. this would not create a stable country and would not create a pro western country - the opposite would be true. You said "Do we have the backbone and the courage to make the right decision. Don't know. " I believe it would take backbone and courage to leave this fight and take the terrorists on where they live and where they are still planning to attack us. Afghanistan - Pakistan - Syria etc.. In fact, I believe the war on terror could be won if we simply go and fight it - rather than fight a war in Iraq that simply aint our fight. Now I am sure people will come on with a bunch of one liners telling me I am some kind of liberal hack and should "move back to the Soviet Union" or that I want the terrorists to win and Ihow I dont support the troops and all - but that could be nothing further from the truth. that is my two cents worth though -that is my opinion. I have lots more to say - but Good God - one could write a book on this subject/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Now I am sure people will come on with a bunch of one liners telling me I am some kind of liberal hack and should "move back to the Soviet Union" or that I want the terrorists to win and Ihow I dont support the troops and all - but that could be nothing further from the truth. that is my two cents worth though -that is my opinion. I have lots more to say - but Good God - one could write a book on this subject/ No! I appreciate reasoned thoughtful responses. I think you post represents the thoughts of many who would not consider to be liberal hacks. I'm not necessarily defending the thoughts in my previous post, I am just asking questions and hoping that others would consider the complications of the Iraq situation rather than just respond by saying "Bush lied". There will be many future ramifications to what we decide to do now in Iraq. I just hope that the bigger picture is considered when people further define their positions on this very important and emotion driven issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 If we leave and anyone look at Iraq and calls that "victory" for the other side, I would have to disagree. I think other nations get the message that their country can also be bombed back to the stoneage and be left to clean up their own filth. Kadafi got that message quick and straightened up quickly! Also - Spain - rolling over? They decided not to participate in a war against Iraq - no bombings since. I was about to log off and found this: Bin Ladin in Iraq Another ramification of a poorly thought out pull out. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 The situation in Iraq is not complicated. We are at War. Americans want us to Win. Democrats are doing as much as they safely can to make us Lose. Get rid of Democrats and Americans will be able to do what is necessary to Win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 While I was just a baby during Vietnam, I am sure there were more than a few folks who felt the world would crumble if we left. We cannot stay in Iraq forever, they are not paying us with their riches to stay so lets get the buck out. I just read about one Iraqi official who has been skimming oil profits, how much sand are we to have kicked in our face. There must be some other reason for a moronic prez to force his nation to stay. The best Letterman skit was last night when bush was stating "They want us to leave and so we'll leave", then he corrected himself and saying we will stay for their own good or to that effect. Here is a two month old story about what can happen if we leave. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080128/dreyfuss @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Here is a story in the Christian Science Monitor which speaks to the plan to lure foreign fighters to Iraq. http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0107/p02s01-usmi.html Doesn't seem to be all of the terrorists in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 While I was just a baby during Vietnam, I am sure there were more than a few folks who felt the world would crumble if we left. We cannot stay in Iraq forever, they are not paying us with their riches to stay so lets get the buck out. I just read about one Iraqi official who has been skimming oil profits, how much sand are we to have kicked in our face. There must be some other reason for a moronic prez to force his nation to stay. The best Letterman skit was last night when bush was stating "They want us to leave and so we'll leave", then he corrected himself and saying we will stay for their own good or to that effect. Here is a two month old story about what can happen if we leave. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080128/dreyfuss @ Good post and informative link. I addressed some of the possible reasons to stay in my original post. Letterman is funny but not unbiased. Seems that the best outcome would a country that is friendly with the US, not occupied and controlled by the US. Your link appears to suggest an outcome that could be positive and allow Iraq to prosper by addressing the needs of all the factions. But wouldn't pulling out tomorrow make that outcome unlikely? Neither Japan nor Germany ended up being occupied by the US. They did up being friends after WWII. Lets give Iraq the opportunity to evolve into the best they can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Henry K Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Japan and Germany did not continue in guerilla war for five years after WW II was over. What is the chance for a West friendly moderate, democratic, prosperous country in Iraq without 160,000 US soldiers and hundred of billions of tax payer dollars a year. Slim, none, are you nuts? We haven't accomplished that in five years, what will another five years accomplish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Japan and Germany did not continue in guerilla war for five years after WW II was over. What is the chance for a West friendly moderate, democratic, prosperous country in Iraq without 160,000 US soldiers and hundred of billions of tax payer dollars a year. Slim, none, are you nuts? We haven't accomplished that in five years, what will another five years accomplish? So please tell us what you think we should do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Henry K Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Give Iraq until the end of the Bush administration and then no more help. In January of 2009 begin an orderly withdrawal. Then they solve their own problems. If someone owes you money and you tell them to pay you back whenever they are ready, will you ever get your money. Crap or get off of the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Give Iraq until the end of the Bush administration and then no more help. In January of 2009 begin an orderly withdrawal. Then they solve their own problems. If someone owes you money and you tell them to pay you back whenever they are ready, will you ever get your money. Crap or get off of the pot. OK. 9 months and out. Many would support your position. But then, what is your response to the questions raised in the original post? @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest henry K Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Most of the post was about foreign fighters, see the Monitor article. Probably the Kurds will form their own government and sell us lots of oil. The majority Shia government will take control of their own country and sell us lots of oil. The minority Sunnis will be give a large degree of autonomy in return for their cooperation. And sell us lots of oil. or their will be a civil war, someone will win, and sell us lots of oil. Either way the fate of Iraq will be in the hands of the Iraqi people, a principle of the founding fathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 The situation in Iraq is not complicated. We are at War. Americans want us to Win. Democrats are doing as much as they safely can to make us Lose. Get rid of Democrats and Americans will be able to do what is necessary to Win Your post adds nothing to the debate. Name calling and simplistic responses such as that do nothing to move this country forward. We are all in this together, republican, democrat, liberal conservative. No one wants us to "lose" this war. None of are "on the side of the terrorists" all of us support our troops. As long as there are those that preach division (such as you do) the longer it is going to take this country to come together and the more difficult it is going to be. People have different opinions and differnt reasons why they think the way they do, it is a part of what makes this country great. Just because someone disagrees with your opinions does not mean they are the enemy. Make those that disagree with you the enemy and we take our eye off the true enemy of our country. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 I'm scared. that last post was sane and reasonable. what is happening to BCVoice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Iran used to be a friendly prosperous ally of the US in the mideast. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Iran used to be a friendly prosperous ally of the US in the mideast. @ Different time, different circumstances. Lets not look backward, lets look forward to where we go from here. What is the approach to provide the best outcome 10, 20 30 years from now. Not shortsighted ill-conceived impulsive feel good tomorrow decisions. I agree with a previous poster that the reflexive name calling is not what should be encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mildly Sarcastic Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 This is an interesting link. It might take a few minutes to view, but if you do take the time, I have some following questions. http://tiny.cc/PepeI Here are some thoughts to consider: Is there more to the Iraq war than just deposing Saddam? Maybe not originally but perhaps it could now be a surrogate war against Iran, Saudi extremists, Muslim extremists and, dare I say, Al Qaeda? Who "wins" if we pull out tomorrow? Many, and they're all bad. Iran for one since they are Shiite controlled. The majority religion in Iraq is Shiite. If we pull out tomorrow, it is likely to result in an incredibly bloody civil war with the Shiites prevailing. Then it is likely that Iran and Iraq become allies with shared Muslim extremist politic & policies. Iraq oil revenues could help increase Iran's nuclear development. Could that possibly make nuclear weapons more quickly available to terrorists? Al Qaeda. Absolutely. A win encourages all radicals to ramp up their efforts worldwide because even the GREAT SATIN could not prevail against them. With Iraq and the Middle East controlled by extremists, could all oil dependent nations be held hostage by these extremists? Not sure but the possibility increases. If it could happen, it's scary to contemplate. Knowing that a conflict with Muslim extremists was unavoidable, could the US have chosen a location to do battle with them to isolate the conflict to one area rather that the entire world including our home soil? I don't know but it seems like all the extremists are being drawn to Iraq to fight us there. My preference would be to attract all these Muslim extremists to one place to fight this battle rather than encourage it to be worldwide. It is incredibly tragic for the Iraqis that it has to be their country. If we roll over in Iraq like Spain did after the bombing there, what message does this send to the extremists? As far as I can see, it's over. Then NO ONE has the backbone or the capability to stand up to them. They ultimately take over the world. just as they are now doing in Europe. Could a stable prosperous western friendly nation in the Middle East be of benefit? No brainer. Yes! If other Muslim extremists saw a moderate Muslim nation prospering, it could be an incredible incentive for Muslims to ignore the extremist and encourage a more moderate government in their nation. It will be a challenge in Iraq, but is it worth the effort? You tell me. In summary, I don't want to debate how we got there, I just would like debate on what we do now. This is one of the most crucial times in the history of our world. Our decisions now will have a major impact on how the world looks for our kids and grandkids. Do we have the backbone and the courage to make the right decision. Don't know. Not sure what that decision is. Spain rolled over after one bombing. Are we going to be like Spain? It's much more complicate than "Bush lied". Sure let's reconsider, let's have it in the US instead of Iraq. That will show the DELETED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 one two heard this site is collecting and going to publish addresses of users on the site. Watch o @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 is it? Off subject. Please start another thread. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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