Converting a House with Electric Baseboard to Propane

[Tracy]

Does anyone know the approximate price range for converting a house with electric baseboard heat to propane baseboard heat?

 

Also, I want to stick with the electric stove and the electric water heater (I'm thinking about switching to a tankless at some point), but I haven't purchased a clothes dryer yet, so I could go either way on that one, depending on the additional conversion cost and your recommendations.

 

(I should mention I'm just learning about all of this stuff for the first time, so please forgive me if I say something really ignorant.)

_____________________

 

Forgot to mention: home is 1250 sq ft finished, with an unfinished basement (where laundry is located).

[Guest Guest]

Does anyone know the approximate price range for converting a house with electric baseboard heat to propane baseboard heat?

 

Also, I want to stick with the electric stove and the electric water heater (I'm thinking about switching to a tankless at some point), but I haven't purchased a clothes dryer yet, so I could go either way on that one, depending on the additional conversion cost and your recommendations.

 

(I should mention I'm just learning about all of this stuff for the first time, so please forgive me if I say something really ignorant.)

$10000+

[Guest Terry Walker]

First visit the following site for incentives available from NYSERDA. I work with one of the programs every day.

 

http://www.nyserda.org/incentives.asp#Residential

 

Secondly, be sure to go the extra dollar for "energy star" products with an energy factor of .90>. LP can be just as costly as electric unless other improvements are made prior to the upgrade. You will save the additional cost within the first year. You should have a professional insulation company perform a blower door test to find heat escape problems and address these issues first. I know that the new boiler is prettier than air sealing and insulation, but since you are forced to use one of the 2 most expensive fuel sources, it is imperative that you insulate and air seal first to retain heat and cut costs. Be sure that any upgrade includes a programmable t-stat and that you understand its use. Proper use can reduce fuel costs up to 10%. Be sure to have separate zones for bedrooms and living areas so you can close them up and turn down the t-stat when they are not in use.

 

I'm guessing at installed costs of around $8-9K but I will say that your improvement cost depends on the size of your home and the heating needs. Be sure to hire a reputable contractor and read and comprehend the workscope of the the contract before signing it. Ask for many references and check them.

Good luck. I hope you find this helpful.

Terry

 

 

[Tracy]

Thank you for the very helpful information. I'm sure the insulation on the house (it's one I'm thinking about purchasing) leaves a lot to be desired, and I couldn't afford to take care of it and the heating system right off the bat, but I've bookmarked the nyserda site and will definitely be referring to it when the time comes (if not with this particular house, then with another).

 

Thanks again!

 

 

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[Madned]

Thank you for the very helpful information. I'm sure the insulation on the house (it's one I'm thinking about purchasing) leaves a lot to be desired, and I couldn't afford to take care of it and the heating system right off the bat, but I've bookmarked the nyserda site and will definitely be referring to it when the time comes (if not with this particular house, then with another).

 

Thanks again!

 

 

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I assume you live in our area where the electric rate is out of sight. The person who gave you the advice about the insulation. Is right on. You may be making a mistake by going to propane? I would go with the blown in insulation first and upgrading your windows and insulating your basement ceiling. Believe it or not electric baseboard is very efficient, except in this area because of the cost. Propane prices will continue to rise like fuel oil and gasoline. Do what you think best but I would go with the insulation first. Good luck

 

[Tracy]

I assume you live in our area where the electric rate is out of sight. The person who gave you the advice about the insulation. Is right on. You may be making a mistake by going to propane? I would go with the blown in insulation first and upgrading your windows and insulating your basement ceiling. Believe it or not electric baseboard is very efficient, except in this area because of the cost. Propane prices will continue to rise like fuel oil and gasoline. Do what you think best but I would go with the insulation first. Good luck

 

Yes, the house is in Broome County. I'm not crazy about using propane--I've heard the tanks can blow up or get struck by lightning or any other number of frightening things--but if I stuck with electric and insulated the heck out of the main floor (how much DOES something like that cost?), I'd still have to figure out how to heat the walkout basement (washer and dryer would be down there). The current owners have propane wall heaters, but I've read that really isn't safe. I've been considering a pellet stove, but I don't know how cost effective that would be after I fork out a couple of hundred dollars just to have the however-many tons delivered. Although, maybe it wouldn't be too bad--I'd only have to keep it warm enough to keep pipes from freezing, right?

 

Obviously, I really like the house. I sincerely appreciate all of the information you guys are giving me.

[Celtic Witch]

Yes, the house is in Broome County. I'm not crazy about using propane--I've heard the tanks can blow up or get struck by lightning or any other number of frightening things--but if I stuck with electric and insulated the heck out of the main floor (how much DOES something like that cost?), I'd still have to figure out how to heat the walkout basement (washer and dryer would be down there). The current owners have propane wall heaters, but I've read that really isn't safe. I've been considering a pellet stove, but I don't know how cost effective that would be after I fork out a couple of hundred dollars just to have the however-many tons delivered. Although, maybe it wouldn't be too bad--I'd only have to keep it warm enough to keep pipes from freezing, right?

 

Obviously, I really like the house. I sincerely appreciate all of the information you guys are giving me.

 

 

Tracy, I have had propane heat in both my homes. As a matter of fact, in 1996 my old home (get this) fell off the concrete blocks (yes it was a mobile home 5 ft in the air(flood zone),was reset, and then the home was flooded in 2005 and rebuilt and I honestly never had any problem with the furnace or any other problems using propane. When the house fell, before I moved back in I just had a service tech come out and pressure test the lines. After the flood, we cleaned the heating ducts, resealed and insulated them and had the furnace serviced again. We replaced the propane hot water heater and stove. No problems. Of course when the house was flooded again in 2006, we decided to stop trying. But, I did keep the propane stove since it was only a year old, had it cleaned and serviced and it works as good as new. The house that we are in now (again a mobile home) has a propane furnace, hot water heater and stove. Anything you may have heard about propane tanks exploding is pure BS. My propane tanks were FLOATING, and they still worked afterward.

 

 

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[Guest Terry Walker]

Yes, the house is in Broome County. I'm not crazy about using propane--I've heard the tanks can blow up or get struck by lightning or any other number of frightening things--but if I stuck with electric and insulated the heck out of the main floor (how much DOES something like that cost?), I'd still have to figure out how to heat the walkout basement (washer and dryer would be down there). The current owners have propane wall heaters, but I've read that really isn't safe. I've been considering a pellet stove, but I don't know how cost effective that would be after I fork out a couple of hundred dollars just to have the however-many tons delivered. Although, maybe it wouldn't be too bad--I'd only have to keep it warm enough to keep pipes from freezing, right?

 

Obviously, I really like the house. I sincerely appreciate all of the information you guys are giving me.

 

"Price is what you pay, cost is what you live with." My point is that propane is not any cheaper than electric if you are sending your heat through the roof. Procedurally, If you air seal leaks first, and then insulate, you will be much better off cost wise. You CAN do the insulation yourself to cut costs. The Do-it centers rent cellulose blower systems, and sell the bags of insulation.

 

Do not use ANY form of an un-vented heat source, period! Unless vented, the release of CO (carbon monoxide) by these devices could kill you! I do not care what anyone tells you. this is not good. If you are using any combustion or vent free appliances or devices, be sure to install a CO detector in the living area. Also, If you have a chimney, be sure to invest in a chimney balloon to inflate and seal the chimney when not in use. This is a huge form of heat loss. A damper is not typically very air tight.

 

Be sure that all bath vents and dryer vents are vented outdoors. 1 load of laundry drying and not vented properly dumps 1 gallon of water into your home. Mold and rot could result if it is not addressed.

 

The most important rule is to remember, Air seal high, air seal low, then insulate high and insulate low. Air seal any attic floor /ceiling penetrations and any basement ceiling penetrations first. Insulate the attic with blown in cellulose to r-48 and insulate the rim joist in the basement using foam board insulation and "Great Stuff" (or an equal product) foam to close the perimeter gaps. being under the ground surface, the basement will remain around 55 degrees during the cold months. I have seen basement ceilings insulated when electric heat is installed, but usually not for LP heat.

 

Your next investment should be replacement of leaky windows and THEN dense packed wall insulation. At some time, you will need to have someone perform a blower door test to be sure the house has adequate ventilation. A house that is "too tight" creates it's own problems and may need mechanical ventilation for occupant safety.

 

Other energy saving solutions,

Use Compact fluorescent lamps anywhere you can (not on dimmer circuits or outside, unless approved for outdoors). Use a programmable t-stat for all heat runs/lines. Program the t-stat to raise and lower heat levels when you are home and away. Set your water heater @ 120 degrees and (if electric) put a dhw blanket on it. If iyou have an 80 gallon unit (explore night rate options with NYSEG) then install a "battery backup" timer in line so that it heats at night and distributes hot water during the day. Running an extra spin cycle on heavy wash loads prior to drying saves 15-30 minutes of drying time. Eliminate use of any portable space heaters. Keep your freezer full of contents for maximum efficiency. Freeze water if you need to to keep it full. If you have a second frig/freezer, condense the contents and unplug it whenever possible.

Run dishwashers and dryers late in the evening during the off peak hours. Turn off the computer and TV when not in use. Set air conditioning at 78 degrees. AC units are not meant to cool air, they are meant to take humidity out of the air. At 78 degrees this is accomplished and will make the unit last longer. Clean the AC fins in the back every year. When appliance replacement is necessary,use "Energy Star" rated products whenever available.

 

Thanks,

Terry

 

[Guest guestagain]

"Price is what you pay, cost is what you live with." My point is that propane is not any cheaper than electric if you are sending your heat through the roof. Procedurally, If you air seal leaks first, and then insulate, you will be much better off cost wise. You CAN do the insulation yourself to cut costs. The Do-it centers rent cellulose blower systems, and sell the bags of insulation.

 

Do not use ANY form of an un-vented heat source, period! Unless vented, the release of CO (carbon monoxide) by these devices could kill you! I do not care what anyone tells you. this is not good. If you are using any combustion or vent free appliances or devices, be sure to install a CO detector in the living area. Also, If you have a chimney, be sure to invest in a chimney balloon to inflate and seal the chimney when not in use. This is a huge form of heat loss. A damper is not typically very air tight.

 

Be sure that all bath vents and dryer vents are vented outdoors. 1 load of laundry drying and not vented properly dumps 1 gallon of water into your home. Mold and rot could result if it is not addressed.

 

The most important rule is to remember, Air seal high, air seal low, then insulate high and insulate low. Air seal any attic floor /ceiling penetrations and any basement ceiling penetrations first. Insulate the attic with blown in cellulose to r-48 and insulate the rim joist in the basement using foam board insulation and "Great Stuff" (or an equal product) foam to close the perimeter gaps. being under the ground surface, the basement will remain around 55 degrees during the cold months. I have seen basement ceilings insulated when electric heat is installed, but usually not for LP heat.

 

Your next investment should be replacement of leaky windows and THEN dense packed wall insulation. At some time, you will need to have someone perform a blower door test to be sure the house has adequate ventilation. A house that is "too tight" creates it's own problems and may need mechanical ventilation for occupant safety.

 

Other energy saving solutions,

Use Compact fluorescent lamps anywhere you can (not on dimmer circuits or outside, unless approved for outdoors). Use a programmable t-stat for all heat runs/lines. Program the t-stat to raise and lower heat levels when you are home and away. Set your water heater @ 120 degrees and (if electric) put a dhw blanket on it. If iyou have an 80 gallon unit (explore night rate options with NYSEG) then install a "battery backup" timer in line so that it heats at night and distributes hot water during the day. Running an extra spin cycle on heavy wash loads prior to drying saves 15-30 minutes of drying time. Eliminate use of any portable space heaters. Keep your freezer full of contents for maximum efficiency. Freeze water if you need to to keep it full. If you have a second frig/freezer, condense the contents and unplug it whenever possible.

Run dishwashers and dryers late in the evening during the off peak hours. Turn off the computer and TV when not in use. Set air conditioning at 78 degrees. AC units are not meant to cool air, they are meant to take humidity out of the air. At 78 degrees this is accomplished and will make the unit last longer. Clean the AC fins in the back every year. When appliance replacement is necessary,use "Energy Star" rated products whenever available.

 

Thanks,

Terry

 

[Guest Whatthe##]

Terry must work for NYSEG,,Electric cost in this area have been high for 25 yrs.,,at one time natural gas was the cheapest at another fuel oil was cheapest,currently propane is cheapest,cleanest and just as safe as all others,,but you are talking a full conversion,whether it be baseboard hotwater,or forced air ,construction material cost are currently way to high to make an affordable transition,check your insulation pay NYSEG and wait til material costs lower

 

 

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[Guest Terry Walker]

Terry must work for NYSEG,,Electric cost in this area have been high for 25 yrs.,,at one time natural gas was the cheapest at another fuel oil was cheapest,currently propane is cheapest,cleanest and just as safe as all others,,but you are talking a full conversion,whether it be baseboard hotwater,or forced air ,construction material cost are currently way to high to make an affordable transition,check your insulation pay NYSEG and wait til material costs lower

 

 

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Actually I work for Honeywell if that makes any difference.Do you work for a propane dealer? Propane is NOT the cheapest form of fuel. It is as clean as and safe as natural gas but typically more costly. If I had my choice (and financial resources) I would use total solar or wind and eventually pay nobody. If I knew a cheap way that everyone could do the same, I would tell you right now. I agree that material costs are high now, but can you seriously think they will be going down very much given the price of transporting goods and dependence on foreign fuel?

Terry

 

 

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[Guest Pellet Supply Guy]

I've been considering a pellet stove, but I don't know how cost effective that would be after I fork out a couple of hundred dollars just to have the however-many tons delivered. Although, maybe it wouldn't be too bad--I'd only have to keep it warm enough to keep pipes from freezing, right?

 

Actually, pellets are very economical. 1 ton of pellets is the equivalent of 120 gallons of heating oil or 170 gallons of propane. Fuel oil is around $4 a gallon, so it's a matter of $680 for oil or around $200-$250 for the equivalent heating power in pellets.

(Source: http://www.mass.gov/Eoca); not sure what propane is. The cost of both oil and propane has risen a couple hundred percent in the past 10 years, oil is up 350%, propane is up 258%, natural gas 89%, and pellets only 43%.

 

Pellets are also a better buy if examined as a cost to burn 1,000,000 BTU. (source- nh.gov/oep)

 

If you have a chance to check out pellet stoves, go to Tall Pines Farm in Montrose (best selection, great service) or to Countryside stoves in Oxford (great service, good selection, reasonable prices) and give them a look.

 

DO NOT BUY A STOVE OR PELLETS FROM WAL MART, LOWE'S, HOME DEPOT, or someone who does stoves and pellets as an afterthought. It'd be like buying a Yugo for a car when you could get a BMW.

[Guest Guest]

Buy a Coal boiler. 1 ton of coal is equal to 200 gallons of fuel oil. I use to burn 1000 gallons of oil.

Now I burn 5 ton of coal in a stoker boiler.Plus it's warmer. 72 w/ coal,68 w/ oil. I save approximately 2000.00 a year on heating. My oil boiler is hooked in series so if I go away for more than 5 days I can switch over. Or have my neighbor just empty my ash pan and top it off with coal. He usually does that for me and I make sure I leave a beer in the fridge for him. People look at me funny when I say I heat w/ coal. But for my hard earned money it's worth it. Plus coal is America's fuel. F those oil tycoons.

[Guest Guest]

[/size]Give some strong thought to putting in a coal furnace, self stoking, if you need to cut costs.

Propane and electric or oil are all more expensive.

 

 

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[Madned]

Actually I work for Honeywell if that makes any difference.Do you work for a propane dealer? Propane is NOT the cheapest form of fuel. It is as clean as and safe as natural gas but typically more costly. If I had my choice (and financial resources) I would use total solar or wind and eventually pay nobody. If I knew a cheap way that everyone could do the same, I would tell you right now. I agree that material costs are high now, but can you seriously think they will be going down very much given the price of transporting goods and dependence on foreign fuel?

Terry

 

 

@

 

Terry you are so right before I retired one of the areas I had to maintain was a propane backup system for a major plant in this area. Eventually all forms of energy will cost the same BTU's per pound or cost per therm as you well know, propane ethane butane methane all will cost the same. The average home owner doe's not have to worry about heavy ends or water in their propane. The worst problem I had was water in a shipment of propane delivered in winter that froze the input lines to the vaporizers. And your point about venting is well put. A person I worked with over insulated his home the resulting vapor pressure pushed moisture through his walls and made a mess. I agree with you I would insulate first and keep the electric base board and maybe invest in a pellet stove. Baseboard hot water heated by propane is a very good system but the installation cost would also be high. As would hot air and duct work.

 

Theoretically a well insulated room could be heated with a hundred watt light bulb. Did Honeywell take over Johnson control? I used a lot of Honeywell products in HVAC as well as Johnson Control. I really liked it when control went to RTD's instead of mechanical pressure and temp control, temperature and pressure relationship and got away from relay logic. This person needs to talk with someone with your knowledge. Good post.

 

[Guest Terry Walker]

Terry you are so right before I retired one of the areas I had to maintain was a propane backup system for a major plant in this area. Eventually all forms of energy will cost the same BTU's per pound or cost per therm as you well know, propane ethane butane methane all will cost the same. The average home owner doe's not have to worry about heavy ends or water in their propane. The worst problem I had was water in a shipment of propane delivered in winter that froze the input lines to the vaporizers. And your point about venting is well put. A person I worked with over insulated his home the resulting vapor pressure pushed moisture through his walls and made a mess. I agree with you I would insulate first and keep the electric base board and maybe invest in a pellet stove. Baseboard hot water heated by propane is a very good system but the installation cost would also be high. As would hot air and duct work.

 

Theoretically a well insulated room could be heated with a hundred watt light bulb. Did Honeywell take over Johnson control? I used a lot of Honeywell products in HVAC as well as Johnson Control. I really liked it when control went to RTD's instead of mechanical pressure and temp control, temperature and pressure relationship and got away from relay logic. This person needs to talk with someone with your knowledge. Good post.

 

 

Thanks for the backup. With all of the bantering and insults to the OP, I didn't think my post was read. In the late sixties when electricity was cheap, builders had a hey day in building electric homes. Typically an electric home is well insulated as mentioned before. There are many of them in this area. I owned one in Kirkwood. The other problem is they cut cost by using aluminum Romex wiring which is also very dangerous and can cause fires. I say this because people don't usually look at the electrical wiring when buying a home. So...buyer beware. If you have aluminum romex wiring, it should be replaced with copper. I know people will say to pigtail and use the noalox compound at the pigtail. I caution on the side of safety.

Sorry for the rant, I just recalled what I went through buying my first home.

The way I look at a home is as a big insulated box. There is the living area and the attic basement. If insulated properly, you can retain heat and... have enough air changes to stay healthy and keep "housatosis" at bay. Ideally one would tighten up the house, and then introduce mechanical ventilation so that they have control over air coming in and going out.

Again, Air seal and then insulate.

Honeywell and Johnson Controls remain competitors. You never know what will happen in the future though. I work for the Utility Solution side of Honeywell. We work with clients across the state everyday, trying to educate them on energy usage and how to cut back. There are many NYSERDA incentive programs to assist people that are interested in making their home more energy efficient. I posted the address earlier for everyone to see. I urge everyone to take a look. t just might help you.

Thanks for reading,

Terry

[Madned]

Thanks for the backup. With all of the bantering and insults to the OP, I didn't think my post was read. In the late sixties when electricity was cheap, builders had a hey day in building electric homes. Typically an electric home is well insulated as mentioned before. There are many of them in this area. I owned one in Kirkwood. The other problem is they cut cost by using aluminum Romex wiring which is also very dangerous and can cause fires. I say this because people don't usually look at the electrical wiring when buying a home. So...buyer beware. If you have aluminum romex wiring, it should be replaced with copper. I know people will say to pigtail and use the noalox compound at the pigtail. I caution on the side of safety.

Sorry for the rant, I just recalled what I went through buying my first home.

The way I look at a home is as a big insulated box. There is the living area and the attic basement. If insulated properly, you can retain heat and... have enough air changes to stay healthy and keep "housatosis" at bay. Ideally one would tighten up the house, and then introduce mechanical ventilation so that they have control over air coming in and going out.

Again, Air seal and then insulate.

Honeywell and Johnson Controls remain competitors. You never know what will happen in the future though. I work for the Utility Solution side of Honeywell. We work with clients across the state everyday, trying to educate them on energy usage and how to cut back. There are many NYSERDA incentive programs to assist people that are interested in making their home more energy efficient. I posted the address earlier for everyone to see. I urge everyone to take a look. t just might help you.

Thanks for reading,

Terry

 

Terry another good point about aluminum wiring you pointed out. The oxidation at pigtails will cause one hell of alot of resistance. When trouble shooting a circuit you get the right voltage but low current flow. Anyone with aluminum wiring should have it replaced. My first experience had me scratching my head. Air changes were a big problem with VAV systems although they had cost savings. The stagnate air in some areas made them uncomfortable. My solution was to disable them and the customer was happy to have moving air. A good enthalpy control for commercial customers can save them a lot of money for heating and air conditioning, but of course as you have run into they do not maintain their dampers in good condition. Way of the subject but good to read some one who is well informed. I am retired, Have a happy.

 

 

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[Tracy]

Thanks to everyone, especially Terry, for the wealth of information! Even if I end up not getting this particular house, these are all really good things to consider!

 

 

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[Guest go coal]

Tracy, the price of propane is going through the roof! Do yourself a favor and instead of spending thousands of dollars converting an electric house to propane, and then thousands more to actually buy the propane, put a stoker type coal stove in your basement, like I did several years ago. Our basement is finished and is where I spend most of my time at home. Cozy warm in winter and naturally cool in the summer. Big screen home theater, pool table, stereo, 3 computers, bathroom, comfy couch to slug on...what more could a guy (or gal) want! (lol) Locate the stove near the stairs if possible and the heat goes up and heats the upstairs. Put a cold air return floor vent at the furthest end of the house and it creates a constant circulation of heat. We also have electric baseboard heat, but never have to use it much...only when it drops below zero does the coalstove need a little help heating the upstairs. They are easy to run and just keep chugging along all winter pumping out constant, steady heat 24/7 as long as you add coal to the hopper once a day. No chimney fires to worry about with coal either. Of course, as stated, if your insulation isn't good, you will waste your heating money no matter what form of heat you use. We have a 3 bdrm raised ranch style home and I go through 2 1/2 tons of coal a winter. Thats 500 dollars for the whole heating season...you can't beat it. We might see a 40 dollar/ month increase in our electric bill, if there was a prolonged cold spell where we used the electric baseboard heat upstairs, but usually it's much less than that. Whatever house you end up with, finish the basement, and put in a stoker coal stove....you'll never be sorry.

 

 

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