Jon Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 No. Whereas you think the universe was created by some intelligent force... many athiests happen to believe the universe happened without some intelligent force driving it. If we could send the right question back through the billions of years to the birth of the Universe that question would swell to fill the Universe and echo majestically in every pocket of it on its journey. That greatest of all questions would be: "WHY?" If the answer comes back: "Why not?" then we would know there is a God with intelligence. If no answer comes back, then we would know that for the Universe just to exist is all the purpose it needs. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 If we could send the right question back through the billions of years to the birth of the Universe that question would swell to fill the Universe and echo majestically in every pocket of it on its journey. That greatest of all questions would be: "WHY?" If the answer comes back: "Why not?" then we would know there is a God with intelligence. If no answer comes back, then we would know that for the Universe just to exist is all the purpose it needs. @ I suspect if there really was a 'God', 'he' would do a much better job letting us know of 'his' existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Geo Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I suspect if there really was a 'God', 'he' would do a much better job letting us know of 'his' existence. You know ... Whenever I hear someone say this it reminds me of the guy who was sure that God was going to save him from drowning. First he turned down the fire truck that came to his rescue ... then turned down the boat that was sent ... finally he refused to get off his roof and into a helicopter, saying he was waiting for God to save him. Soon enough he found himself standing at the Pearly Gates and when he complained to God that he drowned and that God didn't save him God said to him ... "I sent a firetruck, a boat and a helicopter, what more do you want?" Take a look around Guest ... what more do you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Circus Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 You know ... Whenever I hear someone say this it reminds me of the guy who was sure that God was going to save him from drowning. First he turned down the fire truck that came to his rescue ... then turned down the boat that was sent ... finally he refused to get off his roof and into a helicopter, saying he was waiting for God to save him. Soon enough he found himself standing at the Pearly Gates and when he complained to God that he drowned and that God didn't save him God said to him ... "I sent a firetruck, a boat and a helicopter, what more do you want?" Take a look around Guest ... what more do you want? Now send your kids to the Local Priest for some alone time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Geo Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Now send your kids to the Local Priest for some alone time. Wow! That was quite an insightful comment ... Thanks for the input ... Looking forward to more of your unbiased opinions. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 � Whether it was The Catholic Church or the World Order Of Decayed Gentlewomen who produced the 'crust' makes no difference ... a crust it remains, ignorant of underlying essence of all existence. Such a crust does nothing to honor that essence ... but rather misrepresents it and even trivializes it. You have just spent numerous words to both miss my point and simultaneously reinforce it. That takes talent.� I'm assuming (I know...I know) you think that Sacred Tradition is the crust in the CC: II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE One common source. . . 80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41 . . . two distinct modes of transmission 81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42 "And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43 82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44 Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions 83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition. Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 KoD, it's also interesting to note that Mathematics embodies truths that become Tautologies when distilled down to their simplest forms ... self-evident and inviolate. Yet the Universe knows nothing at all of Mathematics ... that is a logical framework, an overlay that Man has developed to superimpose upon reality to make it comprehensible and predictable. As such it has served us potently if not always 'well'. If Man becomes extinct Mathematics may perish with him, but the Universe will not notice even slightly. As you seem to say, Mathematics is an abstraction that (in our presence) seems not only intrinsically self-sustaining but also may not be the only such abstraction. Although less tractable to proof, Religion could well be another, such that what the Universe knows of Mathematics it also knows of God. What I find absorbing is that in the hands of some, religious discussions so easily veer toward impartial Philosophy. Historically that should come as little surprise, because long before Plato or any other renowned thinkers, Religion actually constituted Man's first faltering attempt at Philosophy. As such, religion served a useful purpose to 'get the ball rolling'. Since then Philosophy itself has matured in its own right and become sophisticated. Along the way it and religion have diverged somewhat, inasmuch as religion has remained preoccupied with 'what' to think whereas Philosophy strives to refine 'how' to think. So ironically for Religion and Philosophy to re-encounter now suggests that at least one of the two may be returning 'home'. Little wonder also that the Religious 'have more answers', whereas Philosophers have more questions. Answers without questions can be wrong. Questions without answers can be right. Bumper Sticker time! "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." ~ Bertrand Russell. "A wise man sometimes changes his mind. A fool never does". ~ Anon. "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned." ~ Anon @ If you were in a good God fearing Pentecostal church holding two rattlesnakes in your left hand, and a cottonmouth in your right hand, after gulping down a big ice tea glass full of strychnine you would not be contemplating quantum physics, philosophy, or metaphysics. You would be thinking about "gettin right with Jesus!" @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KoD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 You know ... Whenever I hear someone say this it reminds me of the guy who was sure that God was going to save him from drowning. First he turned down the fire truck that came to his rescue ... then turned down the boat that was sent ... finally he refused to get off his roof and into a helicopter, saying he was waiting for God to save him. Soon enough he found himself standing at the Pearly Gates and when he complained to God that he drowned and that God didn't save him God said to him ... "I sent a firetruck, a boat and a helicopter, what more do you want?" Take a look around Guest ... what more do you want? Uncle Geo, while I seldom if ever agree with you, I would add one point to your counter-argument. In Genesis, it says we are made in the image and likeness of God, a statement that is beautifully captured in Michelangelo's interpretation of Genesis on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Well, God has the ability to choose, or at least I think Christians would agree He does. If that is the case, then according to Genesis, we also have that ability. so then, what would happen if God were to directly assert His authority over us? I.e., he were to appear on Earth, and prove in no uncertain terms he is the Lord God. Would we still have the power to make a choice as to whether or not we believe in Him? It's an interesting conundrum. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 You know ... Whenever I hear someone say this it reminds me of the guy who was sure that God was going to save him from drowning. First he turned down the fire truck that came to his rescue ... then turned down the boat that was sent ... finally he refused to get off his roof and into a helicopter, saying he was waiting for God to save him. Soon enough he found himself standing at the Pearly Gates and when he complained to God that he drowned and that God didn't save him God said to him ... "I sent a firetruck, a boat and a helicopter, what more do you want?" Take a look around Guest ... what more do you want? I would want more critical thinking... If God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job. And he hardly had to confine himself to writings. Why isn’t there a giant crucifix orbiting the Earth? Why isn’t the surface of the Moon covered with the Ten Commandments? Any of those would have been more convincing. Why should God be so clear in the Bible and so obscure in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 If you were in a good God fearing Pentecostal church holding two rattlesnakes in your left hand, and a cottonmouth in your right hand, after gulping down a big ice tea glass full of strychnine you would not be contemplating quantum physics, philosophy, or metaphysics. You would be thinking about "gettin right with Jesus!" Dang! There was I all fixin' to to become a good God fearing Pentecostal, and you had to go and scare me off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 If you were in a good God fearing Pentecostal church holding two rattlesnakes in your left hand, and a cottonmouth in your right hand, after gulping down a big ice tea glass full of strychnine you would not be contemplating quantum physics, philosophy, or metaphysics. You would be thinking about "gettin right with Jesus!" @ It is likely a realist wouldn't put themselves into such a predicament to begin with. The religious zealot however.... @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium. Good! I take it that means that the Magisterium is about to stop fanning the flames of overpopulation and change its stance on Contraception! I had no idea your Church could be so ... 'adaptable'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 You know ... Whenever I hear someone say this it reminds me of the guy who was sure that God was going to save him from drowning. First he turned down the fire truck that came to his rescue ... then turned down the boat that was sent ... finally he refused to get off his roof and into a helicopter, saying he was waiting for God to save him. Soon enough he found himself standing at the Pearly Gates and when he complained to God that he drowned and that God didn't save him God said to him ... "I sent a firetruck, a boat and a helicopter, what more do you want?" Take a look around Guest ... what more do you want? It makes a good rhetorical fable Uncle Geo, but there is one pivotal disconnect of logic: arrivals of the firetruck, boat and helicopter need have no 'God' as agent. In your example God is in fact superfluous to the the observed sequence of events other than as an unobserved and optional extra. What if the man had accepted the helicopter rescue, and minutes later in the confusion it had snagged power cables and crashed killing all aboard? How then would you characterize 'God's' agency? Would He have sent the helicopter, or rather intervened only to smite it down? @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Jesse Ventura put it best: Religion is the crutch of those who are mentally weak. And atheism is the crutch of those who are mentally empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KoD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 It is likely a realist wouldn't put themselves into such a predicament to begin with. The religious zealot however.... @ Actually, I have to confess to such a moment of stupidity a little more than three years ago. And I am a realist. Nonetheless, I messed up pretty badly, and nearly destroyed my life. Now, do I say I KNOW being right with Jesus is what saved me? Nope, it's only what I BELIEVE. I can't prove my deliverance was because of my faith, and I don't know for sure why I was spared. I made a choice then, a choice as to what I believe, but I refuse to spit on the choices of others. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Philosopher Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Actually, I have to confess to such a moment of stupidity a little more than three years ago. And I am a realist. Nonetheless, I messed up pretty badly, and nearly destroyed my life. Now, do I say I KNOW being right with Jesus is what saved me? Nope, it's only what I BELIEVE. I can't prove my deliverance was because of my faith, and I don't know for sure why I was spared. I made a choice then, a choice as to what I believe, but I refuse to spit on the choices of others. Thank you for this post...very rationale, and I wish more people on bcvoice were like this. I agree with you 100%, I have my beliefs but while I will explain them to others, I won't force them on people either...If only people posting on this thread would realize this, then maybe it wouldn't have turned into a 23 pager lol... @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Thank you for this post...very rationale, and I wish more people on bcvoice were like this. I agree with you 100%, I have my beliefs but while I will explain them to others, I won't force them on people either...If only people posting on this thread would realize this, then maybe it wouldn't have turned into a 23 pager lol... Then presumably, Philosopher, you would have endorsed this earlier exchange? Actually, those of us who are religious do not need crutches. We have inner strength to face the trials that come our way. We're not perfect but as long as we are humble, we can have daily inspiration that gives us the strength we need. I'm sure someone will mock this post - it is politically correct to do so. Doesn't matter though - I can handle it. You won't find me mocking it. If it gives you inner strength it shouldn't matter too much where it comes from. All I've ever opposed really is people who progress beyond that to become militant and judgmental, brow-beating others to submit to cookie-cutting of the Evangelist's choosing, and sometimes even further to inflict atrocities in the name of religion. If you don't do any of that, then who should begrudge you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 And atheism is the crutch of those who are mentally empty. Hasn't mentality less to do with it than spirituality? Have you considered that perhaps Atheists have what it takes to appreciate the world spiritually without the crutch of religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Philosopher Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Oh yes actually I have been trying to catch up on reading and you have been offering reasonable insight...I still disagree with you but at least you are conversing in a civil manner...one of my biggest annoyances is Christians who just try and shove Bible verses down their opponents throat...I find reasoned debate is more effective... @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's kind of fun to watch you all desperately trying to figure out who is dancing on the head of the pin. It's all gobbleygook made up over the millenia to explain that which we couldn't understand. Everyone thinks that the way they happened to be raised is correct and that their version is truth while everone else is a fool for believing a different book, tradition or sect leader. As time goes on religion explains less and less and conflicts more often with a scientific analysis of reality. Your beliefs will eventually pass on as a historical curiousity as all such explanations have done and we'll all continue on our jouney of mitochondrial replication regardless of the explanations which the meat bags adopt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Philosopher Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 See this is the kind of post that just ruins a thread...a straight opinion with nothing supporting it...no credibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Geo Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 It makes a good rhetorical fable Uncle Geo, but there is one pivotal disconnect of logic: arrivals of the firetruck, boat and helicopter need have no 'God' as agent. In your example God is in fact superfluous to the the observed sequence of events other than as an unobserved and optional extra. What if the man had accepted the helicopter rescue, and minutes later in the confusion it had snagged power cables and crashed killing all aboard? How then would you characterize 'God's' agency? Would He have sent the helicopter, or rather intervened only to smite it down? @ Good grief Jon ... It was only a story offered in hope that the poster would take a minute and look about him and see the wonders that exist in this world and universe ... and hopefully see the work of a loving God. I mean, even if he is an Atheist he might agree with you as to the existence of a "First Cause ... Higher Power". (Prayer ... Please God, don't let this escalate back into a discussion on whether of not You exist ... Forgive us for beating that poor dead horse again and again.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's kind of fun to watch you all desperately trying to figure out who is dancing on the head of the pin. It's all gobbleygook made up over the millenia to explain that which we couldn't understand. Everyone thinks that the way they happened to be raised is correct and that their version is truth while everone else is a fool for believing a different book, tradition or sect leader. As time goes on religion explains less and less and conflicts more often with a scientific analysis of reality. Your beliefs will eventually pass on as a historical curiousity as all such explanations have done and we'll all continue on our jouney of mitochondrial replication regardless of the explanations which the meat bags adopt. Insightful! I salute you sir! @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Good grief Jon ... It was only a story offered in hope that the poster would take a minute and look about him and see the wonders that exist in this world and universe ... and hopefully see the work of a loving God. I mean, even if he is an Atheist he might agree with you as to the existence of a "First Cause ... Higher Power". (Prayer ... Please God, don't let this escalate back into a discussion on whether of not You exist ... Forgive us for beating that poor dead horse again and again.) All's good Uncle Geo. I was just savoring a set of thoughts like I realized you were doing. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Geo Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Uncle Geo, while I seldom if ever agree with you, I would add one point to your counter-argument. In Genesis, it says we are made in the image and likeness of God, a statement that is beautifully captured in Michelangelo's interpretation of Genesis on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Well, God has the ability to choose, or at least I think Christians would agree He does. If that is the case, then according to Genesis, we also have that ability. so then, what would happen if God were to directly assert His authority over us? I.e., he were to appear on Earth, and prove in no uncertain terms he is the Lord God. Would we still have the power to make a choice as to whether or not we believe in Him? It's an interesting conundrum. @ Here is my belief ... God has given us all free will. If he was to present himself in some manner that would leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to His existence, I believe that we would still have the option of accepting Him or not. The Church doctrine of Transubstantiation holds that Jesus if present in the Holy Eucharist ... Jesus is the second person of the Trinity ... The Trinity is one God of three distinct persons ... Beyond that I can only say that I believe it and accept it through Faith ... I can't explain it any more than that ... so my point in bringing this up is that even though I believe totally in the existence of God unfortunately I occasionally reject Him in varying degrees through my sins, brought about through my use of Free Will ... Mea Maxima Culpa. I hope that answers your question ... remembering that I only speak for myself. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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