A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Where is the outcry for these killing mills??????? LA Times Reveals Horrific New Details about Raided Abortion Clinics By Thaddeus M. Baklinski LOS ANGELES, February 8, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An article published today in the LA Times gives new details about five abortion mills in southern California, owned by Bertha Bugarin, that were raided last summer by a special unit of the Los Angeles Police Department, the Health Authority Law Enforcement Task Force (HALT). At the time of the raids Bertha Bugarin and her sister were arrested and then released on bail. They have now been charged with practicing medicine without a license on five patients in February and March 2007. The LAPD charges Bertha Bugarin "with five felony counts of practicing medicine without certification and two misdemeanor counts of dispensing medication without a license," while Raquel "is charged in the same complaint with five felony counts of aiding or abetting the practice of medicine without certification." When arrested last summer, both women were ordered to stay away from the LA county abortion mills in the Clinica Medica Para La Mujer De Hoy abortion chain; however, Bertha Bugarin was later photographed at the abortion chain's Chula Vista office in San Diego County, wearing a stethoscope around her neck. Operation Rescue President Troy Newman, who helped expose the dangerous abortion practices at the clinics, said, "Bugarin has had a heck of a time keeping abortionists over the years and has always hired the very bottom of the barrel. It looks like when she couldn't get one of her quack abortionists in the office, she did the job herself. Bertha is a predator who has a mercenary attitude about abortions. Laws mean nothing to her, as is the case with so many abortionists. She has been quoted as preferring to target Hispanic communities with her mills, presumably since women there may not be in the country legally and will be less likely to report problems. The sooner Bertha and all of her cohorts are behind bars, the better." According to the Times report a woman, identified only as Angela P., had gone to the Clinica Medica Para la Mujer de Hoy in Santa Ana in the summer of 2004 for an abortion. Dr. Phillip Rand, then in his early 80s, performed a vaginal suction procedure, despite having determined that Angela was about 20 weeks pregnant, well into her second trimester. She was given no anesthesia or painkillers. According to the National Abortion Federation, vacuum aspiration procedures are normally performed on women who are up to 14 weeks pregnant. After 14 weeks, a more complicated procedure, known as dilation and evacuation, is standard. "A suction abortion is not appropriate at 20 weeks," said Vicki Saporta, president of the federation. By the time paramedics arrived, the patient was lying in a pool of her own blood, her pulse racing and her blood pressure dangerously low. Rand was among a number of abortionists employed by Bugarin with histories of malpractice complaints, criminal convictions, drug or alcohol addictions or medical board actions. Rand's negligence was called "barbaric" and a "severe departure" from a reasonable standard of care by the medical board, which revoked his license in 2005. He had previously been involved in 40 malpractice suits, numerous botched abortions, and several license suspensions for gross negligence. The Times report names other doctors who performed abortions at the clinics: - Nicholas Braemer, who lost his medical license after numerous botched abortions, one of which resulted in a woman's death. - Laurence Reich, who lost his license after a second conviction of sexually molesting his abortion patients. Sherman Oaks resident Yvette Chambers said that Reich groped her breasts and asked explicit questions during an abortion. Accusations which led the medical board to put Reich on probation for 10 years included Riech asking women to masturbate and rubbing their genital areas while examining them. - Mohammed Dia surrendered his license after charges of malpractice and billing fraud. He admitted to the medical board that he used a van to bring a bleeding patient to a hospital after perforating her uterus and leaving part of the fetus in her body. - Glenn Edward Miller, an admitted alcoholic whose license was revoked by the medical board in 2005 due to repeated substance abuse relapses. Miller was on probation for performing obstetrical procedures while under the influence of alcohol. - George Dalton Flanigan, who was put on probation for five years for delivering a dead baby using a vacuum procedure, after refusing to perform a cesarean section. Miller and Rand had settled a malpractice lawsuit filed by a woman who said they gave her an abortion at a non-Bugarin clinic in 2002, even though she was not pregnant, rupturing her uterus in the process. The Bugarin sisters are scheduled to appear in court on March 3, 2008. Each could face up to six years in state prison if convicted. http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2008/feb/08020807.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Killing an image and likeness of God, who is innocent, is a violation of the 6th Commandment, "You shall not murder" If unrepented before death, will not go unpunished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Where is the outcry for these killing mills??????? LA Times Reveals Horrific New Details about Raided Abortion Clinics By Thaddeus M. Baklinski LOS ANGELES, February 8, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An article published today in the LA Times gives new details about five abortion mills in southern California, owned by Bertha Bugarin, that were raided last summer by a special unit of the Los Angeles Police Department, the Health Authority Law Enforcement Task Force (HALT). At the time of the raids Bertha Bugarin and her sister were arrested and then released on bail. They have now been charged with practicing medicine without a license on five patients in February and March 2007. The LAPD charges Bertha Bugarin "with five felony counts of practicing medicine without certification and two misdemeanor counts of dispensing medication without a license," while Raquel "is charged in the same complaint with five felony counts of aiding or abetting the practice of medicine without certification." When arrested last summer, both women were ordered to stay away from the LA county abortion mills in the Clinica Medica Para La Mujer De Hoy abortion chain; however, Bertha Bugarin was later photographed at the abortion chain's Chula Vista office in San Diego County, wearing a stethoscope around her neck. Operation Rescue President Troy Newman, who helped expose the dangerous abortion practices at the clinics, said, "Bugarin has had a heck of a time keeping abortionists over the years and has always hired the very bottom of the barrel. It looks like when she couldn't get one of her quack abortionists in the office, she did the job herself. Bertha is a predator who has a mercenary attitude about abortions. Laws mean nothing to her, as is the case with so many abortionists. She has been quoted as preferring to target Hispanic communities with her mills, presumably since women there may not be in the country legally and will be less likely to report problems. The sooner Bertha and all of her cohorts are behind bars, the better." According to the Times report a woman, identified only as Angela P., had gone to the Clinica Medica Para la Mujer de Hoy in Santa Ana in the summer of 2004 for an abortion. Dr. Phillip Rand, then in his early 80s, performed a vaginal suction procedure, despite having determined that Angela was about 20 weeks pregnant, well into her second trimester. She was given no anesthesia or painkillers. According to the National Abortion Federation, vacuum aspiration procedures are normally performed on women who are up to 14 weeks pregnant. After 14 weeks, a more complicated procedure, known as dilation and evacuation, is standard. "A suction abortion is not appropriate at 20 weeks," said Vicki Saporta, president of the federation. By the time paramedics arrived, the patient was lying in a pool of her own blood, her pulse racing and her blood pressure dangerously low. Rand was among a number of abortionists employed by Bugarin with histories of malpractice complaints, criminal convictions, drug or alcohol addictions or medical board actions. Rand's negligence was called "barbaric" and a "severe departure" from a reasonable standard of care by the medical board, which revoked his license in 2005. He had previously been involved in 40 malpractice suits, numerous botched abortions, and several license suspensions for gross negligence. The Times report names other doctors who performed abortions at the clinics: - Nicholas Braemer, who lost his medical license after numerous botched abortions, one of which resulted in a woman's death. - Laurence Reich, who lost his license after a second conviction of sexually molesting his abortion patients. Sherman Oaks resident Yvette Chambers said that Reich groped her breasts and asked explicit questions during an abortion. Accusations which led the medical board to put Reich on probation for 10 years included Riech asking women to masturbate and rubbing their genital areas while examining them. - Mohammed Dia surrendered his license after charges of malpractice and billing fraud. He admitted to the medical board that he used a van to bring a bleeding patient to a hospital after perforating her uterus and leaving part of the fetus in her body. - Glenn Edward Miller, an admitted alcoholic whose license was revoked by the medical board in 2005 due to repeated substance abuse relapses. Miller was on probation for performing obstetrical procedures while under the influence of alcohol. - George Dalton Flanigan, who was put on probation for five years for delivering a dead baby using a vacuum procedure, after refusing to perform a cesarean section. Miller and Rand had settled a malpractice lawsuit filed by a woman who said they gave her an abortion at a non-Bugarin clinic in 2002, even though she was not pregnant, rupturing her uterus in the process. The Bugarin sisters are scheduled to appear in court on March 3, 2008. Each could face up to six years in state prison if convicted. http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2008/feb/08020807.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Killing an image and likeness of God, who is innocent, is a violation of the 6th Commandment, "You shall not murder" If unrepented before death, will not go unpunished. It is because of groups such as Operation Rescue that more and more abortions are being performed by "quacks." Legitimate physicians have been scared off by the terrorist tactics of religious fanatics, some of which do not hesitate to advocate and - in some cases - actually murder physicians for performing a legal service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 It is because of groups such as Operation Rescue that more and more abortions are being performed by "quacks." Legitimate physicians have been scared off by the terrorist tactics of religious fanatics, some of which do not hesitate to advocate and - in some cases - actually murder physicians for performing a legal service. Or maybe those doctors refuse to commit murder themselves? Those doctors are still morally responsible to God for what they do.....Non-violence is always the way to go...and that includes non-violence in the womb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyGolightly Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 AFC, you go on and on about abortion killings. Where do your feelings lie about the killings that go on everyday in this country. Do they deserve lesser attention from you? In the past week there has been many instances reported in the newspapers and on TV but there hasn't been on word from you about these abominations. 1-6 Dead after Gunfire at MO. Meeting 2-At Least 5 Dead in LA Standoff 3-Man Shoots Wife at Ohio School 4-Student Kill 2, Self at La College Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 You are against abortion but also against birth control and sex ed. I think you just like to fight. Save the children and get rid of the blind religious. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jenkem Sharpton Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 The abortion issue is another reason why Obongo should not be elected. Even many people who are pro choice believe there should be restrictions on abortions. Obama does not. He goes so far as to have unbridled support even of partial-birth abortion. This is a procedure, performed in late-term pregnancies, where a fetus is extracted from the uterus via the birth canal by the legs. The head of the child is left inside the mother until after the infant's brains have been sucked out. All the while the child is kicking and flailing. Many lives that are destroyed this way are past the point at which they are viable outside the womb. When the Congress/Senate voted on the ban on partial birth abortions he was one of only five senators who voted against the measure. Obama has stated that a fetus that is born alive should be left unattended to die as the mother intended. In February 2004, U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama's wife, Michelle, sent a fund-raising letter with the 'alarming news' that 'right-wing politicians' had passed a law stopping doctors from stabbing half-born babies in the neck with scissors, suctioning out their brains and crushing their skulls. Michelle called partial-birth abortion 'a legitimate medical procedure,' and wouldn't supporters please pay $150 to attend a luncheon for her husband, who would fight against 'cynical ploys' to stop it? He also defended the rights of hospitals in Illinois to let children die outside the womb by repeatedly opposing the Born Alive Infant Protection Act against infanticide and he is against parental notification laws.http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Barack_Obama.htm Democratic Jr Senator (IL)Voted against banning partial birth abortion In 2003, as chairman of the next Senate committee to which BAIPA (Born Alive Infants Protection Act) was sent, Obama prevented it from even getting a hearing. BAIPA, by the way, stated that all live-born babies were guaranteed the same constitutional right to equal protection, whether or not they were wanted. Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.147-148 Oct 30, 2007 http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...a_Abortion.htm In 1997, Obama twice voted “present” on an Illinois partial-birth abortion ban. Twice, Obama voted against bills prohibiting tax funding of abortions. This Boonus-Africanus favors killing babies. Even animals take better care of their young than this creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 AFC, you go on and on about abortion killings. I sure do. The MOST horrible crime committed by human beings EVER was the Crucifixion of Christ. The second, in my opinion, is ABORTION. Where do your feelings lie about the killings that go on everyday in this country. They are HORRIBLE crimes. Do they deserve lesser attention from you? How are unborn babies that are aborted LESS of a crime than those other murdered people? Those murdered people still had a chance to live until they were murdered. Those babies never had a chance, nor a voice in life. The unborn are the MOST innocent in our society. However, society permits their culling. I don't get it. In the past week there has been many instances reported in the newspapers and on TV but there hasn't been on word from you about these abominations. 1-6 Dead after Gunfire at MO. Meeting 2-At Least 5 Dead in LA Standoff 3-Man Shoots Wife at Ohio School 4-Student Kill 2, Self at La College All horrible crimes. Unspeakable evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 You are against abortion Yep. The killing of the innocent. but also against birth control Yep, because it slams the door in the face of God in terms of His gift of life. and sex ed. Nope. As long as it is the CORRECT material and the people are at the correct age. I think you just like to fight. I wish I didn't have to help fight evil. Save the children and get rid of the blind religious. Peace "Without God, there is no hope for humanity." Pope Benedict 16th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I do not understand!!! Most of the people against abortion also support the DEATH PENALTY!!! They say that no one has the right to take a life under any circumstance - BUT THEY SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY - Is this hypricritcal????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I do not understand!!! Most of the people against abortion also support the DEATH PENALTY!!! They say that no one has the right to take a life under any circumstance - BUT THEY SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY - Is this hypricritcal????? There is NEVER a good excuse to kill an INNOCENT person, ever. The unborn baby is the most innocent in our society. Self defense IS NOT MURDER nor KILLING OF THE INNOCENT, if the attacker dies. You will not have blood guilt on your hands. You have a duty to protect yourself, per scripture. The only reasons why the death penalty should not be used is because of prisons to help keep the general public safe IF they are used correctly. IF NO prisons existed and there was no way to protect the public from a murderer WHO WOULD KILL AGAIN, the death penalty would be warranted by the CIVIL AUTHORITIES. This would not violate God's law because it would not be the killing of the innocent. Catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2263 Legitimate defense 2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66 2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility. 2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67 2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The West Sider Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 AFC, you go on and on about abortion killings. Where do your feelings lie about the killings that go on everyday in this country. Do they deserve lesser attention from you? In the past week there has been many instances reported in the newspapers and on TV but there hasn't been on word from you about these abominations. 1-6 Dead after Gunfire at MO. Meeting 2-At Least 5 Dead in LA Standoff 3-Man Shoots Wife at Ohio School 4-Student Kill 2, Self at La College I think that you may be misunderstanding what AFC is trying to do. All of the above crimes were covered in the mainstream media (and yes, all the things that happene to these people and their families is awful) . However, think about how many abortions were performed in this country in a week. Now, think about how many times you have seen any report on abortions in the media this week. None, I'm sure. All killing (except in self-defense) is wrong - murder, death penalty, etc. What I find interesting is that in my conversations with some animal rights people is that they think it is wrong to eat meat. However, abortion is okay. They talk about the animals being victims and innocent but don't consider an unborn child the same. Being a former Catholic, I can appreciate what AFC is trying to communicate. TWS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Being a former Catholic, I can appreciate what AFC is trying to communicate.TWS If you don't mind me asking....why did you leave the Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 AFC, you go on and on about abortion killings. Where do your feelings lie about the killings that go on everyday in this country. Do they deserve lesser attention from you? In the past week there has been many instances reported in the newspapers and on TV but there hasn't been on word from you about these abominations. 1-6 Dead after Gunfire at MO. Meeting 2-At Least 5 Dead in LA Standoff 3-Man Shoots Wife at Ohio School 4-Student Kill 2, Self at La College From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred. These numbers are FAR WORSE than any murder out there and they never get reported, as TWS stated. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html WORSE THAN ALL OF THIS, IS THAT SOME CHURCHES ACTUALLY ALLOW ABORTIONS AS AN OPTION FOR THE TERMINATION OF A PREGNANCY. REVOLTING AND AGAINST THE LORD'S COMMANDMENTS, TO SAY THE VERY LEAST. THEY ARE IN BED WITH THE CULTURE OF DEATH CROWD, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Where is the outcry for these killing mills??????? LA Times Reveals Horrific New Details about Raided Abortion Clinics By Thaddeus M. Baklinski LOS ANGELES, February 8, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An article published today in the LA Times gives new details about five abortion mills in southern California, owned by Bertha Bugarin, that were raided last summer by a special unit of the Los Angeles Police Department, the Health Authority Law Enforcement Task Force (HALT). At the time of the raids Bertha Bugarin and her sister were arrested and then released on bail. They have now been charged with practicing medicine without a license on five patients in February and March 2007. The LAPD charges Bertha Bugarin "with five felony counts of practicing medicine without certification and two misdemeanor counts of dispensing medication without a license," while Raquel "is charged in the same complaint with five felony counts of aiding or abetting the practice of medicine without certification." When arrested last summer, both women were ordered to stay away from the LA county abortion mills in the Clinica Medica Para La Mujer De Hoy abortion chain; however, Bertha Bugarin was later photographed at the abortion chain's Chula Vista office in San Diego County, wearing a stethoscope around her neck. Operation Rescue President Troy Newman, who helped expose the dangerous abortion practices at the clinics, said, "Bugarin has had a heck of a time keeping abortionists over the years and has always hired the very bottom of the barrel. It looks like when she couldn't get one of her quack abortionists in the office, she did the job herself. Bertha is a predator who has a mercenary attitude about abortions. Laws mean nothing to her, as is the case with so many abortionists. She has been quoted as preferring to target Hispanic communities with her mills, presumably since women there may not be in the country legally and will be less likely to report problems. The sooner Bertha and all of her cohorts are behind bars, the better." According to the Times report a woman, identified only as Angela P., had gone to the Clinica Medica Para la Mujer de Hoy in Santa Ana in the summer of 2004 for an abortion. Dr. Phillip Rand, then in his early 80s, performed a vaginal suction procedure, despite having determined that Angela was about 20 weeks pregnant, well into her second trimester. She was given no anesthesia or painkillers. According to the National Abortion Federation, vacuum aspiration procedures are normally performed on women who are up to 14 weeks pregnant. After 14 weeks, a more complicated procedure, known as dilation and evacuation, is standard. "A suction abortion is not appropriate at 20 weeks," said Vicki Saporta, president of the federation. By the time paramedics arrived, the patient was lying in a pool of her own blood, her pulse racing and her blood pressure dangerously low. Rand was among a number of abortionists employed by Bugarin with histories of malpractice complaints, criminal convictions, drug or alcohol addictions or medical board actions. Rand's negligence was called "barbaric" and a "severe departure" from a reasonable standard of care by the medical board, which revoked his license in 2005. He had previously been involved in 40 malpractice suits, numerous botched abortions, and several license suspensions for gross negligence. The Times report names other doctors who performed abortions at the clinics: - Nicholas Braemer, who lost his medical license after numerous botched abortions, one of which resulted in a woman's death. - Laurence Reich, who lost his license after a second conviction of sexually molesting his abortion patients. Sherman Oaks resident Yvette Chambers said that Reich groped her breasts and asked explicit questions during an abortion. Accusations which led the medical board to put Reich on probation for 10 years included Riech asking women to masturbate and rubbing their genital areas while examining them. - Mohammed Dia surrendered his license after charges of malpractice and billing fraud. He admitted to the medical board that he used a van to bring a bleeding patient to a hospital after perforating her uterus and leaving part of the fetus in her body. - Glenn Edward Miller, an admitted alcoholic whose license was revoked by the medical board in 2005 due to repeated substance abuse relapses. Miller was on probation for performing obstetrical procedures while under the influence of alcohol. - George Dalton Flanigan, who was put on probation for five years for delivering a dead baby using a vacuum procedure, after refusing to perform a cesarean section. Miller and Rand had settled a malpractice lawsuit filed by a woman who said they gave her an abortion at a non-Bugarin clinic in 2002, even though she was not pregnant, rupturing her uterus in the process. The Bugarin sisters are scheduled to appear in court on March 3, 2008. Each could face up to six years in state prison if convicted. http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2008/feb/08020807.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Killing an image and likeness of God, who is innocent, is a violation of the 6th Commandment, "You shall not murder" If unrepented before death, will not go unpunished. Where is the outcry? You might be surprised at this, but most people in this country do not have the same opinions about things as you do. We don't call them "mills" and we do not see abortion as "murder". We also support children after they are born and not just in the womb. We also support birth control so that there are not as many abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 The abortion issue is another reason why Obongo should not be elected. Even many people who are pro choice believe there should be restrictions on abortions. Obama does not. He goes so far as to have unbridled support even of partial-birth abortion. This is a procedure, performed in late-term pregnancies, where a fetus is extracted from the uterus via the birth canal by the legs. The head of the child is left inside the mother until after the infant's brains have been sucked out. All the while the child is kicking and flailing. Many lives that are destroyed this way are past the point at which they are viable outside the womb. When the Congress/Senate voted on the ban on partial birth abortions he was one of only five senators who voted against the measure. Obama has stated that a fetus that is born alive should be left unattended to die as the mother intended. In February 2004, U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama's wife, Michelle, sent a fund-raising letter with the 'alarming news' that 'right-wing politicians' had passed a law stopping doctors from stabbing half-born babies in the neck with scissors, suctioning out their brains and crushing their skulls. Michelle called partial-birth abortion 'a legitimate medical procedure,' and wouldn't supporters please pay $150 to attend a luncheon for her husband, who would fight against 'cynical ploys' to stop it? He also defended the rights of hospitals in Illinois to let children die outside the womb by repeatedly opposing the Born Alive Infant Protection Act against infanticide and he is against parental notification laws.http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Barack_Obama.htm Democratic Jr Senator (IL)Voted against banning partial birth abortion In 2003, as chairman of the next Senate committee to which BAIPA (Born Alive Infants Protection Act) was sent, Obama prevented it from even getting a hearing. BAIPA, by the way, stated that all live-born babies were guaranteed the same constitutional right to equal protection, whether or not they were wanted. Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.147-148 Oct 30, 2007 http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...a_Abortion.htm In 1997, Obama twice voted “present” on an Illinois partial-birth abortion ban. Twice, Obama voted against bills prohibiting tax funding of abortions. This Boonus-Africanus favors killing babies. Even animals take better care of their young than this creep. You lost me in the first sentance when you started with the silly name calling. Stopped reading then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I do not understand!!! Most of the people against abortion also support the DEATH PENALTY!!! They say that no one has the right to take a life under any circumstance - BUT THEY SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY - Is this hypricritcal????? You see - it is all about "them" choosing. "They" are the ones that want to be in control. One of my arguments for freedom os choice on this issue is that once y you give the government the right to say you can not have an abortion - well then you are giving them the right to say that you "must" have an abortion. Kind of like in China. One is not a stone's throw from the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The West Sider Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 If you don't mind me asking....why did you leave the Church? My wife and I tried many parishes and our hearts weren't there any more. At a local parish, the last straw was when the priest was belittling the people who were in the pe ws for not listening to him. At that moment, I turned to my wife and said that we would not set foot in that church again. I went back on my promise and went to a Christmas Mass at that church. It was so packed that I stood in the back and my wife and kids sat up front. Kind of found it funny that the church is never that packed but was on Christmas (I'm sure it will be on Easter too). Anyway, as I was standing in back trying to listen to the Word, people were talking out loud with little regard as to why they were really there. How unfortunate. You might say, we felt a spiritual void. I had no knowledge of the Bible even though I had been baptized, received First Holy Communion, attended religious education classes, became Confirmed, and was married in the Catholic Church. I find that since I became more Christian, I have: 1) Become more conservative morally and financially. 2) Am a regular Bible reader. 3) Become more focused on God. In turn, more focused on my family. 4) Look forward to going to Church. The list can go on and on. I am not saying being Catholic is a bad thing just that I have found something for me and my family. I think that the Church is out of touch with the way things are today. With that being said, I don't think that they should change thier beliefs as I think that most of them are good. The Church needs to do a better job on getting people involved with the Bible and attending to and discussing things that are pertient in today's world. People need guidance and the Bible is the way to get it done. TWS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 If you don't mind me asking....why did you leave the Church? People like you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 If abotion were to be made illegal in the US would there or should there be an exception for victims of rape or incest? Suppose a 13 year old girl was the victim of a brutal rape and then found out she was pregnet from the attack - shoudn't she have the option of terminating the pregnency if she would choose that option?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred. These numbers are FAR WORSE than any murder out there and they never get reported, as TWS stated. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html WORSE THAN ALL OF THIS, IS THAT SOME CHURCHES ACTUALLY ALLOW ABORTIONS AS AN OPTION FOR THE TERMINATION OF A PREGNANCY. REVOLTING AND AGAINST THE LORD'S COMMANDMENTS, TO SAY THE VERY LEAST. THEY ARE IN BED WITH THE CULTURE OF DEATH CROWD, You are inocrrect. They are reported all the time. In fact, just last evening on CNN news. You are also incorrect that it is murder. Most people disagree with you and do not see it as murder. Now I know you would love to shove your religous beliefs down my throat and the throats of anyone that disagrees with you, but that simply is not the kind of country we live in. We do not live our lives by your religous dictate. Period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BC Voice of Reason Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 WORSE THAN ALL OF THIS, IS THAT SOME CHURCHES ACTUALLY ALLOW ABORTIONS AS AN OPTION FOR THE TERMINATION OF A PREGNANCY. REVOLTING AND AGAINST THE LORD'S COMMANDMENTS, TO SAY THE VERY LEAST. THEY ARE IN BED WITH THE CULTURE OF DEATH CROWD, What about the estimated 1.5 million people killed during the Crusades? The Holy War initiated by the pope of your lic (that's my shorthand for catholic) church in the name of God. I'd say that directly defiled the Lord's commandments, wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 What about the estimated 1.5 million people killed during the Crusades? Muslims are to blame for the Crusades. The Holy War initiated by the pope of your lic (that's my shorthand for catholic) church in the name of God. It started in defense of those pilgrims who wanted to go to the Holy Land and not get molested or killed by the Muslims. Not everybody who went on the Crusades did it because of the Pope. Many countries joined in later, for their own benefit. I'd say that directly defiled the Lord's commandments, wouldn't you? The Muslims VIOLATED the Lord's Commandments. Again, the Muslims are to blame for the Crusades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 You are inocrrect. They are reported all the time. In fact, just last evening on CNN news. You are also incorrect that it is murder. Most people disagree with you and do not see it as murder. Now I know you would love to shove your religous beliefs down my throat and the throats of anyone that disagrees with you, but that simply is not the kind of country we live in. We do not live our lives by your religous dictate. Period! Who do I believe more? Popular consensus or the Word of God? I don't shove anything down anyone's throat. You clicked on the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BC Voice of Reason Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Muslims are to blame for the Crusades. It started in defense of those pilgrims who wanted to go to the Holy Land and not get molested or killed by the Muslims. Not everybody who went on the Crusades did it because of the Pope. Many countries joined in later, for their own benefit. The Muslims VIOLATED the Lord's Commandments. Again, the Muslims are to blame for the Crusades. Of course, a pope couldn't do anything wrong, how silly of me. I'm not denying Muslims didn't have part of the blame, but the pope DID initiate the crusades to exterminate Jews as well as the Muslims. I'm sure you'll twist it however you want to protect your lic history, but it DID happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 My wife and I tried many parishes and our hearts weren't there any more. That's unfortunate. At a local parish, the last straw was when the priest was belittling the people who were in the pe ws for not listening to him. At that moment, I turned to my wife and said that we would not set foot in that church again. I don't know the situation, but there are many disobedient Catholics in the Church. MANY. Maybe the priest needed a SOFTER tone, but the same message??? I went back on my promise and went to a Christmas Mass at that church. It was so packed that I stood in the back and my wife and kids sat up front. Kind of found it funny that the church is never that packed but was on Christmas (I'm sure it will be on Easter too). Anyway, as I was standing in back trying to listen to the Word, people were talking out loud with little regard as to why they were really there. How unfortunate. I get upset when Catholics think they are NOT required to go to all Sunday Masses as well as the other Holy Days of obligation. Talking INFURIATES me in the Church. I find that elderly people do it the most. Maybe they lost some of their hearing? You might say, we felt a spiritual void. Did you understand the Mass at all? I had no knowledge of the Bible even though I had been baptized, received First Holy Communion, attended religious education classes, became Confirmed, and was married in the Catholic Church. You should have had SOME knowledge because the liturgy of the Word is half the Mass...... I find that since I became more Christian, I have: 1) Become more conservative morally and financially. 2) Am a regular Bible reader. 3) Become more focused on God. In turn, more focused on my family. 4) Look forward to going to Church. The list can go on and on. I believe the CC is the MOST conservative out there, because it hasn't caved in to the acceptable, secular, social evils as some churches have. I am not saying you have, of course. It just surprises my that you say that because the CC's teaching is considered hard line and never changing. Not an insult or anything, but I think you were just poorly catechized. I have learned about the Faith on my own than the Church teaching me. I studied the Faith on my own..... I am not saying being Catholic is a bad thing just that I have found something for me and my family. I think that the Church is out of touch with the way things are today. With that being said, I don't think that they should change thier beliefs as I think that most of them are good. The Church needs to do a better job on getting people involved with the Bible and attending to and discussing things that are pertient in today's world. People need guidance and the Bible is the way to get it done. TWS I do think the Church does need to catechize the Faithful better. Many people don't understand the Mass in relation to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You say the Church is out of touch....What do you mean? Not modernized? Thanks for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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