Jon Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Jon, you complain that AFC's tactics "forbid discussion" but here you imply that it's not necessary to present proofs refuting his beliefs because he may give you an argument? Come on Jon, if you have proof that the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong bring them into the light and present them so that all might benefit. If there is to be an argument let's get it out into the open and not beat about the bush with innuendos. Uncle Geo, in case you you thought I was finished with your question, I am not. There is a proverb (which I hasten to add is generic): "Avoid staying in an argument with an entrenched ignoramus. He will drag you down to his level, and once there he will beat you with sheer experience". OK, attention-getter out of the way, I'll now move on to a more respectful version of same that is more elaborate. Despite the long association you may have had with these threads, few including you are likely to remember something I had written in the old BCVoice: From: "Dear AFC" Fri Dec 07, 2007 Page 10 (with minor clarifications): As an observation unavoidable by now, it has to be said that when a set of claims are counter-intuitive enough, bizarre enough, and impact enough on people's lives then it is predictable that those claims will attract challenge. Often that challenge will be resolute, even brutal. It follows that purveyors of counter-intuitive and bizarre claims will be put to the trouble of having to defend those claims, often against sentient and articulate opposition. "Practice ... makes perfect". Rightly or wrongly, constant defense of bizarre assertions generates advanced skill in doing, well ... just that. There is imperative to 'have an answer for everything' regardless of the rational merit or irrationality of those answers. All bases have to be covered at all cost, even at sacrifice of integrity. Over a long period of time (like say 2,000 years?) the result is likely to be a cumulative paper arsenal of justifications, qualifications and side-steppery. It gets to be all about being clever first, honest second. It seems clear by now that documentation of the Catholic Church's creed has grown vast and immensely complex. It is riddled throughout with more convoluted checks and balances than a Supreme Court library. By no means does it automatically follow that this sheer Man-made complexity confers validity. Rather, it sets targets of comprehension for the most part unattainable by even the most devout follower. It is huge and unwieldy, lacking the transparency normal folk need to sense Good Faith. This hidebound state has precipitated one Spring-clean crisis already: The Reformation. Ensnared in Catholicism's impossible Hedge-maze of overweening Sophistry, dissidents fearing for their own spiritual survival cut their escape route in desperation with the Theological equivalent of chainsaws. It seems that not enough was learned from that experience by Catholic Church Leadership. Either that or they embrace an assumption that obscurity preserves 'mystique'. They place themselves largely beyond the reach of reason, imposing correspondingly unreasonable onus on dissenters to prove error. At this rate need for another Spring-clean seems only a matter of time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back to the present, I'll elaborate further. The charge of unreasonable Catholic Church complexity resembling that of a Supreme Court Library beyond the reach of most mere mortals (by design?) was subsequently reinforced in that TV documentary hosted by Pope Benedict XVI, which I have mentioned watching. At one location within Vatican City the Pontiff indicated a huge and imposing building, explaining that it houses all of Catholic Law and employs some dozens of legally trained staff, including several qualified at a level which equates to that of a Judge out in the secular world. This vindicated my observation above of a couple of months earlier, which has since turned out to be no exaggeration. Such ostentatious complexity is enough alone to arouse suspicion. If you'll excuse the rather pointed pun, what on Earth does any Church need with a handbook that takes up an entire office block? Is such stupendous intricacy truly in the spirit of the Lord? Is that what Jesus had in mind? Does it faithfully reflect his character? Or rather, isn't it a Travesty? Then, there is an archaic language that is debated, contested and fought over. Scholars agonize and fulminate worldwide over its syntax and grammar, its pronunciation, its written form and protocols, its tradition and history, the exact portent of its pivotal written passages, its revered exponents and orators. Laws written in it are accorded due deference in hushed awe. Am I talking about Latin, that language that enshrines in tradition the unquestioning Faith of True Believers? No. The language I've just described is ... Klingon. Just because a belief system can be intoned solemnly from a vast backup arsenal of documentation housed in reverence and debated interminably does not mean that every (or even any) message in that documentation is valid. There is no Law of Logic that ensures that all Vatican City's Law archive amounts to any more substance than does Klingon. In the case of the vast well-spring of Church Tradition duly documented and archived in that Vatican City building, no doubt some of it is authentic. No doubt also, some of it is not. Perhaps you can begin to understand now why reams of copy-pasted quotes disgorged here like so many beads on a rosary cut no ice with many, including me. Perhaps you can also understand that when we set out to seriously debate matters of Faith here and have the door with reams of Catechisms pinned to it slammed in our face, we do not mistake that for 'discussion', or for 'argument' or indeed for any form of communication worth persevering with. Like Klingon, that slammed door could be encrusted with rank Hogwash. Yet A Faithful Catholic urges us to accept it without question. Furthermore he has behind him vast documented resources that have been schemed over and honed for centuries for an institution's express purpose of covering all bases, to preempt, frustrate, and evade critical scrutiny, bent on maintaining its power via whatever chicanery it takes to do so. I hope this makes it clearer why many here no longer have faith in the 'opportunity' offered to debate Catholicism, subservient to A Faithful Catholic's mechanically chanted rules of debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest boring Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 I really despise copy/paste..if you can't repeat from memory is it necessary to scour the internet for something INTELLIGENT to post? Come on. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted March 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Jesus teaches us about tolerance, one of the fruits of the Spirit, and beyond mere tolerance, even love for other people and groups which may be different from our own. The SEVEN GIFTS of the Holy Spirit are: 1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David. They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations. The 12 FRUITS of the Holy Spirit are: 1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity." I don't see tolerance anywhere... Why not? He never taught it, that is why!!!!! Let your good spirit lead me on a level path. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ. "For if you only love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the publicans do the same? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the publicans do so?" Matthew 5:46-47, Luke 6:32-33) We are never to accept sins nor falsehoods, ever. Love the sinner, HATE the sin. All sin comes from Satan. All of it. By falling into temptation and choosing to do wrong instead of good. EVIL. There are TWO things that are PROOF that Satan exists in this world: 1.) Falsehoods - in all it's forms 2.) Contempt for human life - in all it's forms. We are to NEVER accept them at all. NEVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted March 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 I really despise copy/paste..if you can't repeat from memory is it necessary to scour the internet for something INTELLIGENT to post? Come on. Seriously. No kidding. Besides CANON LAW is the oldest in the western world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Geo Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Jesus teaches us about tolerance, one of the fruits of the Spirit, and beyond mere tolerance, even love for other people and groups which may be different from our own. "For if you only love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the publicans do the same? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the publicans do so?" Matthew 5:46-47, Luke 6:32-33) Gentle Writer ... You are correct up to a point, but will you not recognize that Jesus also had another message when it was necessary to fight wrongs? I specifically refer you to Matt. 21:12-17, Mark 11: 15-19, Luke 19: 45-46 and John 2: 13- 17 all of which show that Jesus was not afraid to do what was needed to protect the house of God. St. John even refers to the fact that Jesus made a whip out of cords and physically drove the money changers out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Who resurrected this thread?? @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSven Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Uh, you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Uh, you did. No I didn't. There was a post between mine and Uncle Geo's that "mysteriously" disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 No I didn't. There was a post between mine and Uncle Geo's that "mysteriously" disappeared. Sure there was. If there were (highly unlikely) then it was probably you under one of your aliases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Sure there was. If there were (highly unlikely) then it was probably you under one of your aliases. Nope. Like the symbol "@" keeps appearing "mysteriously" at the end of my posts! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Nope. Like the symbol "@" keeps appearing "mysteriously" at the end of my posts! :rolleyes: Everything is always a conspiracy with you. At least you didn't outright lie (as usual) and say that you don't use aliases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Geo Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Sure there was. If there were (highly unlikely) then it was probably you under one of your aliases. AFC is correct .... There was a post between his and mine that restarted all this again and now it's gone. Maybe we've been hit by the Black Helicopters!! hahaha @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Satan Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Liars! Notice the only one vouching for AFC is Uncle Chubby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 You are truly pathetic. But more than that, you are a liar. And again -- it is the PHRASE that you continuously use when you are cornered. Not just the word "bored." A bigot and a liar. (Or are you going to lie again and claim you never used derogatory words towards others such as "mooslisms?") AFC = bigot + liar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Geo Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Liars! Notice the only one vouching for AFC is Uncle Chubby? Boy ... the truce didn't last very long, did it? hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Satan Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Boy ... the truce didn't last very long, did it? hahaha Where's the fun in a truce? HAHAHAAA! Good morning, Uncle! I see we are both up and early this fine morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Satan Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 AFC -- why did you resurrect this? I wold think you would be highly embarrassed to have everyone read your lies again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 AFC -- why did you resurrect this? I wold think you would be highly embarrassed to have everyone read your lies again! I never lied and I never resurrected this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted April 9, 2008 Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Look at me I'm AFC Lousy with my virginity Won't go to bed Even though I am wed I can't I'm AFC! Watch it, hey, listen to what I say I know exactly how to pray I like to drink, a little Carlo Rossi My priest will absolve you Of course for a fee! Look at me I'm AFC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted April 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Look at me I'm AFC Lousy with my virginity Won't go to bed Even though I am wed I can't I'm AFC! Why can't I go to bed? Watch it, hey, listen to what I say I know exactly how to pray I like to drink, a little Carlo Rossi My priest will absolve you Of course for a fee! Look at me I'm AFC! I don't like Carlo Rossi. The priest does have the power to absolve sins, per Christ's own words! @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSven Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 No I didn't. There was a post between mine and Uncle Geo's that "mysteriously" disappeared. Was Christ into confrontation as much as you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted April 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Was Christ into confrontation as much as you are? Sure was. Look up His dealings with the Pharisees...... "You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good?" Jesus Christ to the Pharisees for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSven Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Sure was. Look up His dealings with the Pharisees...... "You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good?" Jesus Christ to the Pharisees for example. As much as you are. If people didn't agree with Him he usually turned the other cheek, led by example. You seen to be hell-bent on picking a fight with anyone who has a different point of view then you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 Philippians 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing .. @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Faithful Catholic Posted April 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 As much as you are. If people didn't agree with Him he usually turned the other cheek, led by example. You seen to be hell-bent on picking a fight with anyone who has a different point of view then you do. Oh no. Jesus fought for the TRUTH! He went TOE-TO-TOE with the Pharisees. Anybody who promotes a falsehood is wrong, because it is Satanic in origin at least. You think Jesus came to set up a peace camp? Noper..... John 8:42-47 The Children of the Devil 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=31; @ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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