Bingoloid Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 16 hours ago, M_Sable said: The Electoral College completely disregards the Framer's idea of "one man, one vote...now one person". Why even bother to vote in NY for the Republican presidential candidate? The reasons for the Electoral College is another can of worms, but the vision for it, where we'd elect temperate local people who hadn't made a career out of the government to get together and deliberate the Presidency on our behalf, is sound. Many of the first Presidential elections didn't even have the candidates' names on the ballot, just the local people you were sending. We've since dissolved nearly everything about the institution that made it work as intended. Conceivably, we could agree to reform this to bring it closer to the people and closer to the Framers at the same time, without a Constitutional amendment. Either way, we already have a major political body that massively over-weights the least populous states. 1/3 of the Senate represents less than 10% of the country's people. Arguments about the Winner-Take-All system being part of the Framers' vision to protect the interests of small states is a hoax. The Framers did not devise the Electoral College for that purpose, the Framers did not devise Winner-Take-All at all, and Winner-Take-All does not do this in practice. It pushes both parties to distorted positions that represent a few swing states to the exclusion of everyone else. Very close to yelling about dual sovereignty and monarchists at this point, so will stop there. 11 hours ago, PeteMoss said: It matters to me. Fair enough, BUT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMoss Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Bingoloid said: Fair enough, BUT... The other reason to vote for Trump in a state that he can't win is that if he wins the Electoral College I also want him to win the "popular vote". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Sable Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 17 hours ago, Bingoloid said: The reasons for the Electoral College is another can of worms, but the vision for it, where we'd elect temperate local people who hadn't made a career out of the government to get together and deliberate the Presidency on our behalf, is sound. Many of the first Presidential elections didn't even have the candidates' names on the ballot, just the local people you were sending. We've since dissolved nearly everything about the institution that made it work as intended. Conceivably, we could agree to reform this to bring it closer to the people and closer to the Framers at the same time, without a Constitutional amendment. Either way, we already have a major political body that massively over-weights the least populous states. 1/3 of the Senate represents less than 10% of the country's people. Arguments about the Winner-Take-All system being part of the Framers' vision to protect the interests of small states is a hoax. The Framers did not devise the Electoral College for that purpose, the Framers did not devise Winner-Take-All at all, and Winner-Take-All does not do this in practice. It pushes both parties to distorted positions that represent a few swing states to the exclusion of everyone else. Very close to yelling about dual sovereignty and monarchists at this point, so will stop there. Fair enough, BUT... Bingoloid....I agree with you completely (I think). The Electoral College was initially a way to ensure that a new democracy, an experiment in a way, was not thrown off by a populist nut-case being elected by a mostly illiterate or semi-literate voting public, where there were also very few controls over balloting, and poor infrastructure to even get ballots sent in. This was also the era of the French Revolution and a lot of destabilization. The Electoral College was seen as way way for educated land owners with a stake in the game to prevent a complete melt-down into chaos. On top of that, there was a whole lot of wheeling and dealing that, as you say, unbalanced the Electoral College in favor of a few states (or colonies). Some of it was tied up in "what is the value of a slave as a person in terms of a vote", even if they couldn't vote, but it was important to agrarian Southern states with smaller populations than states in the Northeast. The time for all of that is long past. Gaming the Electoral College and ignoring the vast majority of the population is just not right these days. It just opens the door for more political bullshit and shell games by politicians and lobbyists. Why should 90% of a campaign's resources go into winning 10 states and ignoring the rest? Neither President Trump nor ex-VP Biden will spend any time in NY State, as they know the outcome already. The Constitution is not the Bible. It is a living document that the Founders seem to have made provisions for to amend as needed. The time has come for that. Pete Moss's vote should count! Not in a symbolic way, but in a real way. The Electoral College is a hide-bound concept that needs to go away, as it disenfranchises people of both parties, based on what state they happen to live in. Not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingoloid Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 7 hours ago, M_Sable said: Why should 90% of a campaign's resources go into winning 10 states and ignoring the rest? Neither President Trump nor ex-VP Biden will spend any time in NY State, as they know the outcome already. We might disagree in a few places here, but I think we're aiming at the same objective. It's the same game theory concept as an arms race, or the reason the supermarkets in a town are usually all 24-hour or none of them are. Once one state figured out they could make the entire state's delegates vote for the more influential party and control the election, every state had to do it to preserve their influence. The Framers trusted the people of the states to duplicate a representative and republican form of government, and when we realized some states weren't able to do that, the 14th Amendment was the result. We've never really dealt with this other problem. People always float the argument that its about farm states, but the largest farm state - by far - is sunny California, where farm votes don't matter and their problems aren't the same as Iowa. Populist Republicans have figured out, too, that they can literally drive Texas farmers to suicide to win Pennsylvania and it won't change a thing about Texas. The Democrats have no incentive to intervene and try to represent them. (This is not theoretical, it's real: https://www.texasobserver.org/congress-farmer-suicides-epidemic/) Republicans get sold a scare-tactic that it would mean we'd lose the edge it gives us in the Electoral College, but the truth is that both parties would have to modify their positions slightly to meet somewhere in the new middle and be relevant. As with everything else in government, the real issue is that campaigning nationwide looks too much like hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB 2 Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 In regards school opening, anyone remember before Feds took over our "education" system? The days when all students Learned without the interference of Propagandists teaching What to think instead of How? Must be everyone forgets the days when blacks and whites knew American and world history, warts and all, yet still accomplished their goals. Equal opportunity never guaranteed equal results. Either work to achieve ones goals or blame others for failure did not cut it back when Teachers were in classrooms. (my classrooms had between 30-40 students. Teachers Not Propagandists) Testing, for both Teachers and Students. I am for students that want to Learn doing so. Blaming covid to keep propaganda centers closed is a good thing for America. Home schooling is not only for the anti-American racists. 101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Sable Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 14 hours ago, Bingoloid said: We might disagree in a few places here, but I think we're aiming at the same objective. It's the same game theory concept as an arms race, or the reason the supermarkets in a town are usually all 24-hour or none of them are. Once one state figured out they could make the entire state's delegates vote for the more influential party and control the election, every state had to do it to preserve their influence. The Framers trusted the people of the states to duplicate a representative and republican form of government, and when we realized some states weren't able to do that, the 14th Amendment was the result. We've never really dealt with this other problem. People always float the argument that its about farm states, but the largest farm state - by far - is sunny California, where farm votes don't matter and their problems aren't the same as Iowa. Populist Republicans have figured out, too, that they can literally drive Texas farmers to suicide to win Pennsylvania and it won't change a thing about Texas. The Democrats have no incentive to intervene and try to represent them. (This is not theoretical, it's real: https://www.texasobserver.org/congress-farmer-suicides-epidemic/) Republicans get sold a scare-tactic that it would mean we'd lose the edge it gives us in the Electoral College, but the truth is that both parties would have to modify their positions slightly to meet somewhere in the new middle and be relevant. As with everything else in government, the real issue is that campaigning nationwide looks too much like hard work. Right on target Bingoloid. If you and I agree on EVERYTHING, then one of us is unnecessary ;) I'd be more than willing to consider our minor differences on the matter, as that is what civil debate is all about. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMoss Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 22 hours ago, Bingoloid said: Republicans get sold a scare-tactic that it would mean we'd lose the edge it gives us in the Electoral College, but the truth is that both parties would have to modify their positions slightly to meet somewhere in the new middle and be relevant. As with everything else in government, the real issue is that campaigning nationwide looks too much like hard work. One thought I have never expressed is that there is NO middle. Politics is NOT a straight line. A simple example: Conservative - Pro-life Pro 2A Liberal - Pro Abortion Anti 2A Moderate1- Pro-Abortion Pro 2A Moderate2- Pro-life Anti 2A In reality, the conservative and the liberal have opposing view points. The 2 moderates also have opposing view points. But for some reason, the 2 moderates think they are in the same camp when in reality they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowman60 Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 I love how a$$holes high jack threads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowman60 Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 So let me ask this, WHY can't you vote on your belief? Whether it be Dem or Reb? What holds you to the party? I can tell you, but i won't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowman60 Posted July 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 DO NOT OPEN THE SCHOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. You maybe causing more damage then what we need. We need to protect our kids. Plain and simple. I'm sorry that people can't seem to understand this. My vote is NO!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Sable Posted July 19, 2020 Report Share Posted July 19, 2020 You don't gamble on your kids lives. If they take a year off, who cares? Most young people aren't mature enough by age 18 anyway. European countries typicall y have kids take a year off between high school and college to go travelling, or serve a couple of years in the military. On the other hand, our dentist is having a slew of what she calls "COVID cavities" ...kids sitting home at all hours playing video games and slupping soda pop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB 2 Posted July 21, 2020 Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 On 7/13/2020 at 12:45 PM, DanCooper said: It will happen! All the better to create a surge before 11/3. You and I are pawns on a grand chess board. Aye, to Democrats we are. Thank GOD our President plays GO. 101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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